Direct Mail in the Digital Era with Wilson Zehr, CEO of Zairmail.com

Jul 3

Join our host, Lee Murray in the latest episode of the CEO series as he sits down with Wilson Zehr, CEO of Zairmail.com. They explore the effectiveness of direct mail for business growth and highlight its role in targeted marketing strategies through personalized messaging and audience segmentation. Despite challenges such as rising postage rates, Wilson underscores the enduring relevance of direct mail and its potential for continued evolution in marketing practices.

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Lee - https://www.linkedin.com/in/leehmurray
Wilson - https://www.linkedin.com/in/wilsonzehr/

#ExploringGrowthPodcast #BusinessInsights #EntrepreneurialJourney #BusinessExpansion #EmbracingGrowth #MarketingTalk #WilsonZehr #Zairmail #Directmail

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But there is a class of advertising

that is just brand awareness.

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So you think Nike is the classic,

right?

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If you open a magazine or I mean,

well, magazines are harder to

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find these days to. Yeah, right.

In theory. But. Okay.

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Welcome back to Exploring Growth, my philosophy really when it

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comes to marketing mediums, if you've

been listening to this podcast

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for any time, you probably heard

me say it at least 2 or 3 times.

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And that is,

you probably shouldn't start

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with the medium or the platform.

You should probably start with

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your audience and their needs,

and then of course,

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your messaging or your vision

and how all that maps together.

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And then think about where that

messaging can be most effective,

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which medium would be most effective.

So, you know, you don't look at

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a side of a bus and say, hey,

can we put our logo there?

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Or could we put our our message

there?

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There's a lot more thinking that

has to go into the side of the

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bus before you end up picking

the side of the bus.

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If you want your marketing to be

effective.

00:01:06,030 --> 00:01:09,210, so with all that said,

today we have the opportunity to

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explore the effectiveness of

direct mail as a means for growth.

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And my guest today is Wilson XR,

ZR, founder of. Airmail.

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Welcome to Explore and Growth.

Thank you Lee.

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Thank you for having me.

I really appreciate it.

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Yeah for sure.

I mean, when our when our paths

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crossed, I thought, hey,

this is a great opportunity to have

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this discussion about direct mail.

I've been wanting to have this

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conversation more directly.

I've no pun intended.

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kind of loosely with other guests,

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you know, as, an anecdote,

but I thought, hey,

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let's talk about direct mail in 2024.

And is it a thing?

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Is it effective? Is it?

You know, I don't see a lot of

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my clients using it.

I mean,

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I do have clients that use it, but I don't look out there

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and see a lot of companies that

are itching to get, you know,

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back to direct mail.

So as we kind of get into that

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discussion, let's first start with

tell us about Zemo and kind of,

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you know, your typical client.

What do you guys do?

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And that should give us a little

context to your thoughts. Okay.

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Yeah. Isabelle's been around.

We just did a there was just an

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article in the Daily Journal of

Commerce here in Oregon talking

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about ceremonial.

It's been around for we're in

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our 25th year now.

Started pre bubble on the internet.

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funded by Hewlett Packard and

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Draper Fisher Jurvetson and DFA.

It was like they were the guys who

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who, funded Skype and fax and

Hotmail and a bunch of things. Okay.

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the purpose of their mail is to

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make sending direct mail easier.

And back to your your comment.

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I mean, there's there are almost

two levels to the discussion.

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There's direct response and then

there's direct mail and direct mails

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as segment of direct response.

We can do direct response with

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many different mediums.

But but we're pretty focused on mail.

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So the idea was their mail is

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you can come to the site.

you can upload your document,

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you can upload a list.

You see a preview of what you're

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going to, what's going to be produced

in real time. You like what you see.

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You hit the button.

You're in the mail tomorrow,

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the next day at a fraction,

a fraction of the cost.

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Love it, isn't it? Yeah.

In addition, for us,

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we're we're a software company,

you know, so the XR mail is,

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is powered by the Sendak's platform,

which is a web to print solution and

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And basically what we do is automate

the ordering of print products.

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So when you push that button,

we've got a network of production

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partners around the country.

The document is routed electronically

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to the most efficient place to

be produced, in which point it,

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you know, it's, you know,

becomes paper and it's folded and

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sorted, put in envelope and mailed.

And so we, you know, we kind of

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get the best of both worlds.

We get the efficiency on the

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front end of being able to deal

with electronic documents and

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the way those can be, you know,

we can manipulate those and,

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and transport them.

But at the same time, we,

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you know, we turn them into

physical documents that are

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optimized for the mail stream.

You know, everything is the right

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size, it's address correctly,

it's got a barcode on it.

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They don't go in a mailbox.

They go to the business mail

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entry unit where everything's all

bundled and sorted and trade and

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ready to go out for delivery.

So I mean, it's not only is it a

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lot faster solution, but it's

less expensive as well. Gotcha.

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And as, as a sort of a side note,

we were talking about this a

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little bit ago, you have the kind of the

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parent company or the behind the

scenes company syntax Synnex is

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more of a technology company,

is that correct? Exactly.

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Bendix is a software company, builds

the software behind their mail and

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and a number of other sites as well.

I mean, we the Sendak software

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is generic web to print.

We we created the category in 2004,

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and basically what we do is we

automate the ordering of print

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products, but we do have the specialty

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and direct mail, given that we

started airmail long ago.

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And, we know an awful lot

about it at this point.

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I think it's interesting you've got, kind of like a lot of

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digital technology creating

something that's analog, right?

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interesting juxtaposition there.

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of course it's needed.

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direct mail still has a place

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for certain businesses.

Certain brands, has,

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in your opinion, if you look back

over the course of, let's say,

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the last 20 years, really of kind

of the internet coming on and

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everything kind of going digital, and yeah, probably 20 maybe,

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maybe a little bit more.

Would you say that direct mail was

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broken at that point, or it just

lost the value in the market?

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Yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say

it's it's broken. Really.

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I mean, the mail stats are a little

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more complicated than they're

kind of made out to be usually,

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you know, there are lots of different

classes of mail, but the two

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primary classes of male we talk

about usually our first class male,

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go down to the post office,

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you buy a retail postage stamp

and the other is called,

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well, they, they're calling a

marketing mail these days.

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They're trying to rebrand it again.

But before that it was standard A,

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and before that we used to call it

bulk mail or even junk mail. Right?

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Yeah, it's mostly advertising stuff.

Yeah.

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And I mean, if we look over the

history last 20 years, definitely

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volumes are down because a lot

of transactional mailing. Right.

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You know, when you're, you,

sending in your, your check for

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your credit card payment or for

your mortgage or whatever,

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a lot of that stuff has gone

electronic, as it should.

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I mean, I mean, it's faster,

more efficient.

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You've got services like PayPal.

Most banks have,

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bill pay kind of application, so you can, you know,

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that that kind of makes sense.

But direct mail does some things

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that no other medium does.

And so I mean, when you're

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looking out over certainly the

last ten years the volumes have

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been relatively consistent.

And part of that is that because

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direct mail costs money,

you have to pay postage and printing.

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And so it's unlike some forms of

email and some digital

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advertising where the incremental

cost is almost zero. Right.

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It's very low,

with direct mail because of the cost.

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It's always been,

kind of driven by return on

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investment by ROI, right?

If the programs don't make money,

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if they if you don't see an ROI,

people People don't do it again.

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So if you can look out there at the

volumes, most of the volume that's

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out there today is supported by

returns, so it's pretty solid.

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Unlike a lot of the stuff,

the digital stuff, you'll see

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that's more speculative in nature

because it doesn't cost anything

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to carpet bomb 3 million people.

You know this, right? Yeah.

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Except for the labor to do it, you know,

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having the the the insight of how

to put the technology together in

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order to have it be effective.

Assuming you're going to it's

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going to be effective, right.

Well, if you think about email,

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I mean, if you if you can buy into a,

you know, a platform that lets you do

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cold emails, for example, I mean,

the incremental cost of an email

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is it has to be 100th of a penny

or something. Yeah. It's tiny.

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I mean, you can send everybody on

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the planet an ad for cialis and,

you know, and, and hope that the two

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people who respond, it's going to,

are going to pay for the service.

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You know. That's right.

So that's,

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but we can't do that in direct mail.

We, we need to be very targeted

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and very thoughtful and put stuff,

put offers in front of people that

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are going to produce a response.

And I think we're very good at

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doing that.

So, who do you see naturally

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gravitates to this type of medium?

Like what type of what type of

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brands?

Well, historically, if I could, you

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know, while I'm thinking about it,

I mean, yeah, just a little aside.

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00:09:32,620 --> 00:09:36,640, we talked about direct mail

kind of analog versus digital,

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and I spent a lot of my career

I've done worked on a bunch of

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startups now, but I mean,

a lot of my career working on

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something I call convergence.

So when, you know, when the internet,

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you know, first started, well,

the first web browser was, what,

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1995 or something,

and the internet started growing

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exponentially after that.

There's a whole bunch of legacy

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applications that have value for

people, but they had no

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connection in that digital world.

So we spent a lot of time kind of

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stitching those things together.

One of the the early startups I

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worked on was something called

diffusion, which,

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really did voice over IP applications

and tried to bring what we did is

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essentially integrated the public

telephone network with the internet.

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And so applications like Skype

or in that same, same area.

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E fax was another one.

A lot of people aren't using facts

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anymore, but it was a that's right.

It was a convergence application.

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And there's still a lot of those

opportunities out there, you know,

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to make the legacy stuff work

with the new digital stuff.

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And all of our lives are,

you know, kind of driven around

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digital these days.

So those connections need to be made.

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tools like zoom do that too. Right.

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I mean, we're connecting people,

but we're, you know, that are

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exist in the analog environment,

but they, you know, they we

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connect them digitally. Right?

So, so anyway, so sorry for the.

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Yeah. No that's good.

I like I like the history lesson

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because it's good for especially

younger people who haven't lived

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through all those changes.

I remember facts and I remember

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using it for business development, you know, because even back then,

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when email was still sort of, relatively new back in the

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early 2000, I mean, not new,

but but people weren't, using it

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like they're using it today, I guess, there were lots of companies that

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came on board online that, like,

like any fax type of service that,

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inbox and, you know,

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we're still trying to do that today, and hopefully more, genuine,

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genuine ways, with a lot,

a lot more parameters that are

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holding us back from being less

genuine, which is great.

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your comment about, you know,

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sending emails, we do a lot of cold

email outreach for our clients.

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And, you know, if you know how

to do that really well,

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and it's genuine then, and you play

by all the rules, then it can have,

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you know, amazing responses, but I think, I think the

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same applies to direct mail.

I mean, you have your bad actors

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as well, you know,

people just basically spamming.

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And that's where the junk mail,

you know, people wouldn't be calling

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a junk mail en masse if it weren't.

They didn't think about it as junk

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mail. Right, no. Exactly.

So, you know, I think that I

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think that there's, there's sort of

bad actors and with every medium,

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you get behind the bus and you see, a lawyer's face there,

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and, you know,

you have to wonder at what point

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does that make sense for them, I guess if their audience is at

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the bus stop and they look behind

the bus, I don't know. Right.

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Well, I actually talked to a guy

a while back.

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He had something called,

broadcast broadcast media.

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And basically what they did is

they took they went to airports

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and they took those little,

shelters where you wait for the

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bus in long term parking,

and they installed screens in them,

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and then they just blast advertising.

They think, well, you know,

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for the 15 minutes that you're

stuck there, you're going to

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have your be our prisoner.

You know, you're going to have to

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watch our heads. That's right.

And, and at some point that

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wears a little thin, you know,

the consumer. Yes.

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Does it need to be interrupted

everywhere they go, you know. Yeah.

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There's a saturation point I

think is what comes to mind.

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And that's a classic example, of, you know, creating new

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mediums or new, you know,

versions of, of existing mediums

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and then shoving them down small

business owners throat saying,

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look, you should be here.

And then those sort of less

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sophisticated entrepreneurs

looking at it and saying, oh,

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wow, there's an opportunity and

it's relatively affordable.

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I guess I should be there.

And then, you know,

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complying and you have this

thing that kind of goes on it.

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I wouldn't necessarily say it's a

scam, but, you know, no one's really

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measuring the ROI on eyeballs at

a bus stop or, you know, at that,

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that train station, so, you know,

it does it does have a lot of

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question marks behind it. Right.

I was talking to a lady just

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this morning who has a gluten

free bake shop.

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And her big advertising thing she

does every year is she buys a,

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a placement at this golf tournament,

this local golf tournament. Okay.

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And I'm thinking, well, how many of

those folks are gluten free, do you

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think? Yeah. That's right, guys.

What are you saying? It works.

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What's she saying? It works.

No, she just say she didn't know.

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Oh. Of course.

That's a hard one to get some

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analytics on. Right. Yeah. There's.

Yeah,

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there's no direct linkage at all.

And maybe somebody will come in

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and mentioned that they saw you

on the course.

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But in addition, I'm thinking that

a lot of those folks may not be,

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you know, gluten free fans.

You might need to go to the health

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club or something, you know?

Yeah, that's a big stretch for me,

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00:15:03,580 --> 00:15:06,490, to get there on that as a

marketing spend.

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So with that, with with with that

in mind, I mean, that's kind of a

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funny example, but unfortunately

a lot of those are out there.

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And that's how marketing dollars

get spent.

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You know, where like what types

of companies will naturally

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gravitate to direct mail.

And then of those companies or

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even others who are on the

fringe who are maybe don't use

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it as a primary channel,

where does it fit in their strategy?

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Yeah, that's a great question.

I mean, traditionally,

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traditionally.

Well, our tool, because,

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it makes it fascinating to send

historically, we've done a lot of

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work with small to medium business.

I mean, if you're a small,

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male customer,

your options are limited sometimes.

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Well, in the pre mail days,

your options were limited.

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My friend Marty Emery used to be

VP of marketing at the U.S. Postal

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Service, told me a story one time

where he said, you know, his dad

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had this little hardware store,

and he kept telling his dad,

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you should use direct mail.

Dad, I work at the post office.

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Helps you, helps me.

You know, you should use it to

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grow your business.

So one day dad says, okay,

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maybe you're onto something.

So he goes down to the local post

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office and walks up to the counter

and he says, I want to do some

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direct mail. What do you got for me?

And there was just a sound of

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crickets.

You know, they're like, yeah.

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I'm here, you know.

So and especially for, you know,

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traditionally if you're dealing

with a commercial printer or a mail

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house or something like that, if

you've got a job that's 500 pieces,

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nobody even wants to pick up the

phone. I mean, you know, it's.

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That's. Right.

You know, because of the costs

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involved, the capital costs of

that kind of a business.

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00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:56,720, and we kind of break through

that, because the,

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the production partners are looking

at us as the customer. Right.

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So we aggregate all those volumes

together and it makes sense for our

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production partners. Yeah. Okay.

It's sort of like a peo actually

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in the insurance world. Okay.

right? Yeah, exactly.

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And that's the connection that comes

to mind. I have no idea why, but.

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No. That's great.

I mean, it's just you're just

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aggregating volumes and

production partners like volumes.

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I mean, but we have to manage

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the complexity behind that,

you know, behind the right

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aggregation and tracking and

customer support and all of that.

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So, traditionally we've seen a

lot of interest in, in real estate,

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independent insurance agents.

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We've done other stuff that,

you know, you see sometimes

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landscaping, pest control,

I mean, a lot of things like

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that small to medium business.

And we have some larger customers

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that are doing some debt

collection things or, or debt

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restructuring or renegotiation,

things like that. Yeah. Yeah.

291

00:18:04,250 --> 00:18:08,210, historically we've done a lot

of stuff with mortgage brokers.

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and I can explain why that's true.

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But, you know, the the market for

cash out refinance right now is,

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is, not great because

interest rates are high. Right.

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But when interest rates are low,

that works out better. Yes it does.

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00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:29,240, so so that's kind of, you know,

that's kind of where we play.

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The reason for direct mail, I mean,

you didn't ask this question,

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but just to just to provide a

little context. Sure.

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There are certain things that

direct mail does that no other

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medium can do.

You know, the first of all is,

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is that direct mail can reach

every household and business in

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America six days a week and

nothing else can do that.

303

00:18:49,890 --> 00:18:54,270, secondly, it's proactive

communication, you know.

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Imagine if and Google AdWords is

a great tool.

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I'm not going to diss them at all.

I mean, we use them and a lot of

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our customers use them too.

But it's passive, right?

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People have to be looking for a term.

They have to be looking for

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something in order for that to work.

But with direct mail,

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if I can identify the right client,

I can reach out and touch them

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anytime I want, you know?

Well, six days a week.

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Six days a week. Yep, I guess the third thing,

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the third thing is,

is demographic targeting.

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So if I, if I want to reach Jewish

dentists in new Jersey that have

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purchased a car in the last six

months, I can find that list.

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And we talked about mortgage

brokers with a mortgage broker.

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If I'm part of a bank,

I can actually buy credit score

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data so I can identify,

you know, not only, you know,

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people who purchase, who funded loans

when interest rates were higher.

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I can find people, you know,

that meet my underwriting criteria.

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They have a certain Fico score,

no 30 day late, you know,

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no bankruptcies the last two years,

etc. and I can align with my,

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my underwriting criteria and just and

reach out and talk to those people.

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Have a conversation. Right, so there's no waste in that.

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And really, when we look at the

success of a program, not just

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direct mail, any marketing program,

it's it's like, you know,

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70% is audience or the list.

You know, talking to the right person

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at 20% is having the right offer.

This is in direct response,

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I guess. That's right.

And advertising that's different.

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You know Nike does something

different. You know just do it there.

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And we can talk about why they

do it that way. Yeah right.

331

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But but 20% is the offer.

And the other 10% whatever it is,

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is creative which is interesting

for always interesting for me,

333

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because tends to be people tend

to focus on the creative.

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They want to focus on the art.

Yeah, but that's not usually

335

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what drives a successful direct

response campaign. That's right.

336

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I mean, it's a bigger factor in in

brand advertising for sure. Yeah.

337

00:21:05,710 --> 00:21:10,030, I think I think creative is,

is is for sure a part of it,

338

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just like it is on on Facebook ads

and those type of things for sure.

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But I kind of have this framework

that I always go back to is it's

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50% audience, 50% messaging,

and 100% just send it, you know,

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because when it comes to whatever

we're you're talking about

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direct mail, email, you know,

whatever it needs to be sent so

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you can get the feedback and you

can know is your messaging right?

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Is your audience demographic right?

Or you know, your however your

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direction is is being painted, but there is a creative element

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to it that is very important.

You know, I'm sure like when you look

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at a direct mail piece where you

put the offer and where you put the

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title and how big, and you know,

how it all flows together matters.

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Just like if you're putting together

a Facebook ad, I think it all

350

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matters. Only it matters for sure.

But it it really, it matters less

351

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if you're talking the wrong person.

That's right. It doesn't matter.

352

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Yeah, none of that matters

because the message is

353

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definitely not going to land, and I think that's what's really

354

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that's what's really appealing

about the direct mail side is,

355

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is your access to that type of data, and you know,

356

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from my perspective,

I look at like the mortgage broker,

357

00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,950, route makes a lot of sense

because you're trying to reach

358

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someone at home and they're in their

home thinking about their home.

359

00:22:38,020 --> 00:22:41,470, and so with a Facebook ad,

they may not be in their home

360

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thinking about their home.

They may be in the car pickup line.

361

00:22:44,830 --> 00:22:49,450, you know, so out of context to

which, you know, there's a lot of

362

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advantages to a Facebook ad or a

Google ad or those type of things

363

00:22:52,690 --> 00:22:57,430

for, for various other reasons.

But I think for context,

364

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for the homeowner being at home,

thinking about their home,

365

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they can sit and look at their

windows that need to be replaced.

366

00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,400

They can, you know, think about

their mortgage and how much,

367

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how high their rate is.

And, you know, their car in the

368

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driveway, you know, plumbing,

heating and air and so, so on and

369

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so forth, because people want to

invest in their home ultimately.

370

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I mean, most people want to

improve their home.

371

00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,840, not everyone can do to just

financial constraints at

372

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whatever season in life, but I think the context of them

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getting in their mailbox, which I

think most people get it from their

374

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mailbox and walk into their home.

So the behavior and mindset that's

375

00:23:36,590 --> 00:23:40,070

happening when they're looking at

that piece of mail and then mapping

376

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it to that data is impactful.

It's I think it's it can be very

377

00:23:44,270 --> 00:23:48,230

effective. Well, yeah. No.

And that example two I mean,

378

00:23:48,230 --> 00:23:51,230

we could take it one step further

because if we have access to that

379

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data, I could tell them, you know,

you can pull out $10,000.

380

00:23:55,070 --> 00:23:56,720

Here's what your new payment is

going to look like.

381

00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,450

And here's what you know the Apr

looks like.

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So you know, so it's not you know, so

there's an element that's imagining

383

00:24:03,530 --> 00:24:05,750

what you could do to your home.

But there's also the practical

384

00:24:05,750 --> 00:24:08,450

element of, look, I'm going to save

100 bucks a month. And that's right.

385

00:24:08,450 --> 00:24:12,020

There it is numbers right. Yeah.

That's right. Yeah.

386

00:24:12,020 --> 00:24:15,050

You can show the upside and the

downside right.

387

00:24:15,050 --> 00:24:21,770

So I mean I think so so I think

that was the demographic part of it.

388

00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,790

The other thing is, and you

touched on the the other element,

389

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the other element is that it's just

built into the American psyche.

390

00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:32,420

I mean, somebody, you know,

telemarketer calls you on the

391

00:24:32,420 --> 00:24:35,630

phone during the day.

And how do you react? Right?

392

00:24:35,630 --> 00:24:38,300

I mean,

it's completely negative these days.

393

00:24:38,450 --> 00:24:41,330

I mean, I would hate to be.

Well, I'm not going to say that, but,

394

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I mean, I feel sorry for the folks in

the telesales industry that have

395

00:24:45,770 --> 00:24:50,000

to make those cold calls because

people get angry. Really angry. Yeah.

396

00:24:50,180 --> 00:24:54,200, but but mail is just built

into the American psyche.

397

00:24:54,230 --> 00:24:57,170

People have been trained from a

young age to, and I don't want to

398

00:24:57,170 --> 00:25:01,220

say trained, but they're accustomed

to picking up the mail every day,

399

00:25:01,220 --> 00:25:03,860

sorting through it.

And some stuff they keep some stuff

400

00:25:03,860 --> 00:25:09,080

they, you know, they they don't, some stuff ends up on the fridge,

401

00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,970

which is a home run from the

marketing standpoint.

402

00:25:12,660 --> 00:25:17,070, and, and it's just, it's just

part of the American experience.

403

00:25:17,070 --> 00:25:21,390

And so, that helps from an

advertising standpoint.

404

00:25:21,510 --> 00:25:25,860

And that's why I guess, you know,

in general the the Marketing

405

00:25:25,860 --> 00:25:29,580

association, the American Marketing

Association tends to say that, well,

406

00:25:29,580 --> 00:25:34,890

the number they quote is $13 for

every dollar spent on average is

407

00:25:34,890 --> 00:25:38,490

what the industry returns look like.

That's pretty high.

408

00:25:38,940 --> 00:25:40,530

Yeah,

that's that's pretty compelling.

409

00:25:40,530 --> 00:25:44,910

I mean, they're they're examples of

stuff that that are more in specific

410

00:25:44,910 --> 00:25:48,930

cases and over a career in marketing.

I mean, I've seen some companies

411

00:25:48,930 --> 00:25:52,440

that work really well and yeah,

some that did not work so well.

412

00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:57,720

Sure, as an industry average, I think

that's pretty compelling for sure.

413

00:25:57,930 --> 00:26:03,540, do you see most of the companies

or brands using direct mail as

414

00:26:03,540 --> 00:26:08,400

their only channel or as a mix?

You know, like a,

415

00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,940

like you kind of mentioned before,

like a convergence of a hybrid of

416

00:26:11,940 --> 00:26:16,140

doing this and this together or as

sort of just like one layer in,

417

00:26:16,350 --> 00:26:20,640

in a more of an omnichannel approach.

I think it really depends.

418

00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:26,670

I mean, it depends on the industry

and the type of of player.

419

00:26:26,670 --> 00:26:31,950

I mean, if you were a realtor today,

I mean, you know, you you you

420

00:26:31,950 --> 00:26:35,520

probably need a website, you

probably need to use social media.

421

00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,000

But there's still a role for just

sold, just listed postcards.

422

00:26:39,300 --> 00:26:41,340

I mean, that's, you know,

that's right.

423

00:26:41,340 --> 00:26:45,600

To reach out and get people I have

a we have a customer in Virginia

424

00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:50,130

that does open houses and they

they'll invite, basically they'll

425

00:26:50,130 --> 00:26:53,580

bring a food truck, you know,

and park it in the driveway and then

426

00:26:53,580 --> 00:26:59,160

invite the whole neighborhood. Yeah.

And, I guess you could do

427

00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,150

that on social media to try,

but it's it's it may for him.

428

00:27:03,150 --> 00:27:06,120

It makes more, especially since he

has to spend money on the food truck.

429

00:27:06,330 --> 00:27:09,430

It makes more sense to just pull

a list or do a do a radius,

430

00:27:09,430 --> 00:27:12,610

search around the house and just

pull a list of all the neighbors

431

00:27:12,610 --> 00:27:16,480

and send out an invitation.

Yeah, that's a brilliant idea.

432

00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:23,560

I'm a big fan of using any medium

to as to get people to an entree.

433

00:27:24,010 --> 00:27:25,930, you know,

something that is going to be an

434

00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:30,070

be an entree to their real sale, and in a very genuine way.

435

00:27:30,070 --> 00:27:34,240

So it's a free invitation to

this sort of meeting place,

436

00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:35,800

whatever that looks like.

In that case,

437

00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,200

a food truck in the neighborhood.

We're going to be here doing this

438

00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:43,450

thing. Come enjoy it if you'd like.

No hard sale, but when you're there,

439

00:27:43,450 --> 00:27:45,220

then we're going to tell you about

everything else we're doing that's

440

00:27:45,220 --> 00:27:49,180

related, hopefully in very genuine.

And if you want to get involved

441

00:27:49,180 --> 00:27:51,670

with that, you can.

But you know you're not going this

442

00:27:51,670 --> 00:27:55,990

hard pitch from, hey, you just picked

this up cold and I want to tell

443

00:27:55,990 --> 00:28:01,570

you about buying this thing that

that's a much harder leap. Right?

444

00:28:01,570 --> 00:28:05,800

Well, and from the standpoint of

the realtor, I mean, certainly

445

00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,580

you're marketing this house,

but what you're doing is something

446

00:28:09,580 --> 00:28:13,390

much broader than that to you're,

you're you're building a relationship

447

00:28:13,390 --> 00:28:17,410

and a rapport and building a

brand in the neighborhood. Right.

448

00:28:17,410 --> 00:28:22,060

And so when people have the need,

they think of you and you're doing

449

00:28:22,060 --> 00:28:25,990

that with a sense, you know, building

on a sense of reciprocity, right?

450

00:28:25,990 --> 00:28:28,810

You give to the customer,

they feel like they should give

451

00:28:28,810 --> 00:28:32,590

back even if they don't,

ultimately purchase.

452

00:28:32,590 --> 00:28:34,990

But just being able to talk with

them and shake a hand,

453

00:28:34,990 --> 00:28:38,260

give them a business card, you know,

get to know them and and maybe

454

00:28:38,260 --> 00:28:42,340

they'll pass you along to a neighbor.

But this, this whole networking idea

455

00:28:42,340 --> 00:28:47,890

of becoming, you know, part of the

fabric of the community, is a

456

00:28:47,890 --> 00:28:51,040

really good one for his business.

And, and it's something that we

457

00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,320

can support.

You know, I can see that because

458

00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,620

it's genuine, you know,

and it probably speaks to his brand,

459

00:28:56,620 --> 00:29:00,460

which is a lot of other things, and it's not forced.

460

00:29:02,380 --> 00:29:05,950

You know. Exactly. Yeah.

So I have another question for you.

461

00:29:05,950 --> 00:29:09,520

This is kind of off the side,

but I'm thinking about, again,

462

00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:15,850

mixing mediums, and,

platforms or or tools. Right.

463

00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:23,560, I'm curious to know if you,

have used video at all to support any

464

00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,910

direct mail outreach and if so, or

have you seen companies wanting to do

465

00:29:27,910 --> 00:29:34,940

that with their direct mail? We do.

And and I, I think it goes back

466

00:29:34,940 --> 00:29:39,980

to what you said earlier, too, about,

you know, being able to pick the

467

00:29:39,980 --> 00:29:45,200

right tool for the right customer.

And we have a model I teach at

468

00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,780

the university level two,

and I'm not running this company.

469

00:29:48,380 --> 00:29:51,440, and I usually teach marketing,

entrepreneurship,

470

00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,550

finance and business strategy. Okay, and we have a marketing

471

00:29:55,730 --> 00:29:58,250

model we use called the

strategic marketing model,

472

00:29:58,250 --> 00:30:01,430

which you can find on the internet.

Or I'd be happy to share with you.

473

00:30:01,670 --> 00:30:05,270

But the basic idea is you identify

the product and you divide.

474

00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,140

Define the target audience.

And maybe you need to tweak one

475

00:30:09,140 --> 00:30:11,990

or the other to make sure you can

get alignment between the two.

476

00:30:12,500 --> 00:30:16,940

Then we select the price point.

Price point is usually next because

477

00:30:17,570 --> 00:30:26,090, well the the bottom, the,

the bottom tier on pricing is always

478

00:30:26,090 --> 00:30:29,360

cost of goods sold, you know,

and what we'd really like to do is

479

00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,750

capture the perceived value in the

mind of the customer. Correct. Yeah.

480

00:30:32,750 --> 00:30:35,000

But that's always,

always moderated by the

481

00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,530

competitive offerings for sure.

You know, based on those elements, we

482

00:30:39,530 --> 00:30:43,520

collect a price point that tells us,

you know, based on the audience,

483

00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,940

the price point and the and the

product that tells us what channel

484

00:30:46,940 --> 00:30:51,260

we're going to use, we need to use.

And the role of our advertising

485

00:30:51,260 --> 00:30:55,880

and promotion is always to,

you know, to build awareness and

486

00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,310

support activity in the channel,

build awareness,

487

00:30:58,310 --> 00:31:02,930

establish preference and support

the activity in the channel. Yeah.

488

00:31:02,930 --> 00:31:05,600

And so to the extent that direct

mail can do that,

489

00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,230

it's a very effective tool.

The reason for telling you all

490

00:31:09,230 --> 00:31:13,160

that is, is I want to come back

to an example of a bond measure.

491

00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,880

We worked on local bond measure

for a, you know,

492

00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:21,740

school district here in Oregon.

And, you know, we looked at the

493

00:31:21,740 --> 00:31:25,790

audience, you know, a bond measure,

this bond measure was to create a

494

00:31:25,790 --> 00:31:28,940

new athletic facility for something

that was over 100 years old,

495

00:31:28,940 --> 00:31:32,580

needed to be replaced, but we're asking people to

496

00:31:32,580 --> 00:31:35,640

taxes every year.

497

00:31:35,790 --> 00:31:40,650

And so if we look out there at

the audience, what we could do,

498

00:31:40,650 --> 00:31:43,800

what we were able to do is we first

we were able to pull a list of

499

00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:49,980

registered voters from the county.

Then we took and we looked at people

500

00:31:49,980 --> 00:31:54,150

were homeowners versus non homeowners

and people who had children versus

501

00:31:54,150 --> 00:31:58,260

those who didn't have children.

So for segments and then we

502

00:31:58,260 --> 00:32:02,730

overlaid that on the voter file.

And then we can tune the messaging

503

00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,270

to each of those audiences.

So if you if you're a homeowner and

504

00:32:06,270 --> 00:32:10,920

you don't have any kids in school,

then the messaging needs to be

505

00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,550

more about communities, supporting

your community and being a good,

506

00:32:14,550 --> 00:32:17,790

you know, citizen and helping

your neighbors, etc.. Sure. Yeah.

507

00:32:17,970 --> 00:32:21,060

As opposed to if you're a homeowner

and you have kids in school,

508

00:32:21,060 --> 00:32:24,180

then you know it's value.

It's a value based sale.

509

00:32:24,180 --> 00:32:27,210

You know, your kids are going to

be getting this extra stuff.

510

00:32:27,210 --> 00:32:33,090

You know, that's a good thing, and, you know, if you if you

511

00:32:33,090 --> 00:32:35,970

if you're not a homeowner and you

have kids in school, it's a bonus,

512

00:32:35,970 --> 00:32:38,640

right? Why wouldn't you vote for it?

Right? Yeah. Right. Right.

513

00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,670

I love that it's like a

messaging grid. Right.

514

00:32:41,670 --> 00:32:45,480

So so once we have that, we say,

well, what's the most effective

515

00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,000

way to teach, you know,

to reach those people?

516

00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,180

And, and it's not just in this case,

it's not just direct mail.

517

00:32:51,180 --> 00:32:53,340

What we did is we created a

little website.

518

00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,770

You know,

we've got testimonials from students.

519

00:32:55,770 --> 00:32:59,040

And and it turned out that that

building was around so long we could

520

00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,580

find generations of people, you know,

granddaddy was, you know. Yeah.

521

00:33:02,970 --> 00:33:05,520

And mom, who is at at the kid

who was in it, you know, and and

522

00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,120

show these generations of people

who got use out of that building

523

00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,390

and who would benefit, you know,

who's going to benefit from the new

524

00:33:12,390 --> 00:33:16,140

building, right? Tell that story.

But I would say that's a perfect

525

00:33:16,140 --> 00:33:20,460

time to start storytelling. Exactly.

And so and we put all of that

526

00:33:20,460 --> 00:33:24,330

content on the website. Right.

And then we then we use tools

527

00:33:24,330 --> 00:33:27,750

like social media to drive

people to the website.

528

00:33:27,750 --> 00:33:31,770

We, we use stuff like yard signs

and door hangers and stuff to,

529

00:33:31,770 --> 00:33:34,680

to reach people.

But then in that campaign,

530

00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,830

direct mail is very strategic too,

because we can we can.

531

00:33:37,830 --> 00:33:41,550

We have these segmented audiences.

And here in Oregon,

532

00:33:41,550 --> 00:33:45,630

everything's vote by mail. Right.

And so, okay, what we can do is

533

00:33:45,630 --> 00:33:50,190

we can we can start.

And we by the way, in, I mean,

534

00:33:50,190 --> 00:33:52,800

you see it here, all this negative

press about vote by mail.

535

00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,900

We've been doing it for 25 years

here and never had an issue,

536

00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,370

as far as I can tell. Yeah, right.

That's the only way we do it,

537

00:34:00,370 --> 00:34:04,030

because it's less expensive. Right, but anyway,

538

00:34:04,030 --> 00:34:06,760

we could start from the date of

the election and work backwards.

539

00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,670

And it turns out a lot of people,

when they get their ballot in

540

00:34:09,670 --> 00:34:11,950

the mail, though,

it's the same day, right?

541

00:34:11,950 --> 00:34:15,190

They just check the boxes,

drop it in, and they're done.

542

00:34:15,190 --> 00:34:17,920

So you're messaging after that,

there's nothing.

543

00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,410

You might change their mind,

but there's no way they're going to

544

00:34:20,410 --> 00:34:24,370

affect their vote. That's right, but some people do wait

545

00:34:24,370 --> 00:34:27,430

until the last day, you know,

till the day the ballots are due.

546

00:34:27,430 --> 00:34:30,760

So what we do is we, you know,

we we send out some pieces in

547

00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:35,170

advance and, and kind of, you know,

do some community events, some

548

00:34:35,170 --> 00:34:39,250

outreach and communicate with people,

try to build this constituency.

549

00:34:39,250 --> 00:34:42,700

Then we'll reach out with direct

mail and we remind them of that.

550

00:34:42,700 --> 00:34:45,670

Then we can find out from the

state exactly when those ballots

551

00:34:45,670 --> 00:34:48,580

are going to mail.

So I'm going to be in the mail in the

552

00:34:48,580 --> 00:34:52,300

mailbox with the postcard the day

before they receive their ballot,

553

00:34:52,300 --> 00:34:55,240

or the same day to receive the

ballot, to remind them why this

554

00:34:55,240 --> 00:34:58,180

is important. Yeah.

And I'm going to hit them with

555

00:34:58,180 --> 00:35:01,960

another piece the day before

ballots are due. Yeah.

556

00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,840

And you know and so that's very

effective. Right.

557

00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,830

And so well Well that's the last

time the in terms of results,

558

00:35:08,830 --> 00:35:12,760

the last time they did this bond

measure, it just passed.

559

00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,960, but they had to wait until

late into the night to see it

560

00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,440

because it was they won by two

votes or something. Oh, wow.

561

00:35:20,470 --> 00:35:23,350

But we, you know,

using this technique,

562

00:35:23,350 --> 00:35:26,590

it was overwhelming success.

It was not even close. Right? Yeah.

563

00:35:26,590 --> 00:35:31,990

So, the tools do work,

but it's not just about, you know,

564

00:35:31,990 --> 00:35:36,940

I think it's not just about websites.

It's not just about email.

565

00:35:36,940 --> 00:35:39,550

It's not just about yard signs

or direct mail.

566

00:35:39,550 --> 00:35:43,420

It's how do I, as a marketer,

how do I use all the tools that are

567

00:35:43,420 --> 00:35:48,430

available to me to communicate with

the person I'm trying to influence?

568

00:35:48,430 --> 00:35:54,070

That's right, 100%. And that's 100%.

And I could even go back to you were

569

00:35:54,070 --> 00:35:58,580

talking about telemarketing calls, you know, the problem,

570

00:35:58,580 --> 00:36:02,150

the systemic problem you have

with that and direct mail and

571

00:36:02,150 --> 00:36:05,540

Facebook ads in every other medium

is that you have someone who

572

00:36:05,540 --> 00:36:10,790

wants to turn a profit quickly.

And that means in a short 90 day term

573

00:36:10,790 --> 00:36:15,470

or a one day term, or, you know,

they don't want to invest in,

574

00:36:15,590 --> 00:36:21,290, this the audience, they,

they they want to get money.

575

00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,490, and so whenever you want to get

money, that means you need scale.

576

00:36:25,490 --> 00:36:29,930

And so when they try to go to scale,

that means spam because they think,

577

00:36:29,930 --> 00:36:33,260

well, we're just going to hit

everybody and then we'll get a few.

578

00:36:33,260 --> 00:36:37,520

And that's what makes it difficult

for every other marketer and the

579

00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:41,390

good marketers out there that

understand people behavior,

580

00:36:41,390 --> 00:36:44,510

they understand a little bit of

psychology, and they understand how

581

00:36:44,510 --> 00:36:48,920

to reach people where they are,

like we're talking about in the home

582

00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:54,200

in context to something, you know,

very, very rarely. And you tell me.

583

00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,830

But I know as a marketer,

very rarely when I'm watching TV out

584

00:36:57,830 --> 00:37:03,350

at an airport, wherever I am, I very

rarely see good marketing and the

585

00:37:03,350 --> 00:37:07,160

good marketing that comes through.

You know it when you see it because

586

00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:11,270

as a marketer, you see all the layers

that are there and you see the

587

00:37:11,270 --> 00:37:15,590

time and attention that was put to

reaching you in such a genuine way

588

00:37:15,590 --> 00:37:19,820

that you're compelled to respond.

You're you're compelled to do

589

00:37:19,820 --> 00:37:22,640

something more, if anything.

Take a picture of the ad and

590

00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,780

share it, you know, but very rarely see it,

591

00:37:26,780 --> 00:37:31,310

where all those things that

you're talking about, where

592

00:37:31,310 --> 00:37:33,290

you're talking about an audience,

you're talking about the product

593

00:37:33,290 --> 00:37:36,590

and pricing and all of those things

have been labored over so that it

594

00:37:36,590 --> 00:37:41,450

can be done in a meaningful way.

No. Exactly. Right.

595

00:37:41,450 --> 00:37:44,600

And in that case, I mean,

that's the way we use the videos is

596

00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,930

on the website, and then we drive

people to the website and the videos

597

00:37:47,930 --> 00:37:52,160

can do their thing, you know.

And so that's, you know, that was,

598

00:37:52,700 --> 00:37:55,670

and and videos are very powerful.

I mean, people yes,

599

00:37:55,670 --> 00:38:00,590

people would much rather,

listen to a story and see images

600

00:38:00,590 --> 00:38:06,290

and read words, you know,

and that, I mean, it's funny.

601

00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,910

This is I was at a,

the farmers market here last weekend,

602

00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,990

and there was, the lady from

the literature department at the

603

00:38:14,990 --> 00:38:17,540

university was there,

and they they have a bunch of

604

00:38:17,540 --> 00:38:20,790

old books and storage.

And so they were selling books

605

00:38:20,790 --> 00:38:23,550

at the farmers market, and they

were selling them by the inch.

606

00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:29,670

You know, I was like?

Okay, so that's interesting.

607

00:38:29,790 --> 00:38:32,880

But I told her, I said, you know,

a lot for a lot of homes these days,

608

00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,370

a lot of people don't read anymore.

So for a lot of homes,

609

00:38:35,370 --> 00:38:38,100

those are just decoration. Yeah.

You know,

610

00:38:38,100 --> 00:38:42,330

so the more colorful ones could

actually be more valuable And. Right.

611

00:38:42,750 --> 00:38:45,420

Depending on what kind of decor

they're going for. Exactly.

612

00:38:45,690 --> 00:38:48,900

And she just rolled her eyes.

She was she was not happy with that.

613

00:38:49,020 --> 00:38:52,530

But for whatever reason, I mean,

people are just not as interested

614

00:38:52,530 --> 00:38:57,300

in literature as they once were.

And that's what I think, but I agree.

615

00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:02,040

Yeah, but I think the only other

thing, the other thing I want to

616

00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:07,740

come back to is this idea to of of

response versus brands. Right.

617

00:39:08,250 --> 00:39:12,900, so what we're talking about

here and what we deal with mostly

618

00:39:12,900 --> 00:39:16,740

we do brand advertising to,

you know, brand reinforcement.

619

00:39:16,770 --> 00:39:21,270

Certainly that food truck example,

he's building brand and building

620

00:39:21,270 --> 00:39:25,260

rapport with the local community but a lot of what we do in direct

621

00:39:25,260 --> 00:39:27,510

sales, direct response. Right.

We're trying we're putting an

622

00:39:27,510 --> 00:39:31,350

offer in front of people and

trying to get them to respond in

623

00:39:31,350 --> 00:39:33,600

some way that helps us.

And this election,

624

00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,090

we're looking for a vote.

So we're not always looking for

625

00:39:36,090 --> 00:39:39,240

a sale, you know. That's right.

You know, or dollars.

626

00:39:39,690 --> 00:39:43,410,

but there is a class of advertising

627

00:39:43,410 --> 00:39:46,710

that is just brand awareness.

So you think Nike is the classic,

628

00:39:46,710 --> 00:39:49,860

right?

If you open a magazine or I mean,

629

00:39:50,670 --> 00:39:54,030

well, magazines are harder to

find these days to. Yeah, right.

630

00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:58,410

In theory.

But if you look at the advertising,

631

00:39:58,410 --> 00:40:00,510

you know, a lot of their stuff

is just do it right.

632

00:40:00,510 --> 00:40:04,890

It's a, it's a, it's an image

that's thought provoking or,

633

00:40:04,890 --> 00:40:08,370

or memorable in some way.

It's got the Nike logo and it

634

00:40:08,370 --> 00:40:10,980

says just do it.

And the reason why they're doing

635

00:40:10,980 --> 00:40:14,040

that is because, you know,

they're trying to build top of the

636

00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:17,710

mind brand name recognition because

of the way the customer buys.

637

00:40:17,710 --> 00:40:21,070

They know that that customer is

not going to pick up the phone

638

00:40:21,070 --> 00:40:23,710

and order sneakers.

You know, when they when they see

639

00:40:23,710 --> 00:40:27,190

that ad, what's going to happen is

probably is the next time they're

640

00:40:27,190 --> 00:40:31,120

in the store looking for sneakers,

they'll say, Nike.

641

00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,820

And that's the box they reach for.

That's right.

642

00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:35,920

You know,

because I can't influence him.

643

00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,400

Well, I could try to do in-store

advertising and ad on the shelf

644

00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,800

or something,

but it becomes harder to do that.

645

00:40:41,890 --> 00:40:47,050

So,

so it's a little different approach.

646

00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:51,550, but it's a if we want to

build brand on a national basis,

647

00:40:51,550 --> 00:40:54,820

it's really expensive to I mean,

it's. Oh, yeah.

648

00:40:55,420 --> 00:40:59,350

You know, you see all the beer

companies and the, you know, consumer

649

00:40:59,350 --> 00:41:03,550

products companies spend hundreds of

millions of dollars on that. Right.

650

00:41:03,850 --> 00:41:08,470

So last question as we wrap up,

this is, where do you see

651

00:41:08,470 --> 00:41:12,790

direct mail going in the in the

coming months and years?

652

00:41:12,940 --> 00:41:16,300, do you think it's going to come

back as strong as it once was?

653

00:41:16,870 --> 00:41:23,230, or maybe in a different way?

Well, I think I think it'll continue

654

00:41:23,230 --> 00:41:26,770

to be relevant because once again,

it's producing a response.

655

00:41:26,770 --> 00:41:28,840

So, you know,

it's it's hard to argue with the

656

00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:33,340

return on investment. That's right.

So as long as it's, as it

657

00:41:33,340 --> 00:41:38,050

continues to return, produce, return, people will continue to use it.

658

00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,180

I think unfortunately,

our friends at the Postal Service

659

00:41:40,180 --> 00:41:44,290

have been raising postage rates

about twice a year recently.

660

00:41:44,290 --> 00:41:52,390

And, there's this idea of,

of, you know, price elasticity that

661

00:41:52,390 --> 00:41:56,200

comes into play at some point. Yeah.

So so hopefully they'll lighten

662

00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:58,900

up on that a little bit. Yeah.

That's kind of what I'm thinking.

663

00:41:58,900 --> 00:42:01,270

If that gets out of control then

the you know,

664

00:42:01,270 --> 00:42:04,990

barrier to entry can be harder.

You know, you're a return is going

665

00:42:04,990 --> 00:42:12,820

to be less, naturally. Yeah.

I, I think, you know, it's so

666

00:42:12,820 --> 00:42:15,340

that that particular thing is,

is not helpful.

667

00:42:15,340 --> 00:42:19,070

I mean, the, the Postal Service

has a universal service mandate.

668

00:42:19,370 --> 00:42:22,700

I it seems like they think if they

raise the price, somehow they're

669

00:42:22,700 --> 00:42:25,640

going to become profitable.

But I mean, if you're trying to

670

00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,960

deliver a letter to,

you know,

671

00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:34,460

a small cottage out in rural Oregon,

that's never going to be profitable.

672

00:42:34,460 --> 00:42:37,370

I mean, right, and there's nothing

you can do to change that.

673

00:42:37,370 --> 00:42:43,430

I don't think that's right, but, you know, but there are

674

00:42:43,430 --> 00:42:46,190

Direct Mail in the Digital Era with Wilson Zehr, CEO of Zairmail.com

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Direct Mail in the Digital Era with Wilson Zehr, CEO of Zairmail.com

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