Understanding ABM and Building a Framework with Katrine Rasmussen

In this episode of Exploring Growth, Katrine Rasmussen joins Host, Lee Murray to dive into her framework for account-based marketing (ABM).

Gain valuable insights as they discuss the crucial role of aligning sales and marketing and the significance of tailoring your approach to captivate your targeted accounts. Additionally, learn about the essential aspects of cultivating relationships and establishing trust in B2B enterprise sales cycles, and discover how event marketing can serve as a powerful strategy to accomplish these objectives. If you've ever wondered what ABM truly entails, this conversation unveils its power and potential to maximize your business growth!

Thank you for watching. If you are enjoying what you hear, please consider sharing it with a colleague or a friend.

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Go here: https://www.harvardmurray.com/exploring-growth-podcast

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Lee - https://www.linkedin.com/in/leehmurray
Katrine - https://www.linkedin.com/in/katrinerasmussen

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Lee Murray (00:00:00) - Welcome back to Exploring Growth Podcast. So glad you're here. If you are a marketing leader and you are exploring ABM account-based marketing, and you want to kind of dive a little deeper, this is the episode for you. All right. We're back exploring Growth podcast, and today I have the pleasure of speaking with Katrina Rasmussen. And, um, she's actually out in Copenhagen, which is cool. It's like 7:30 PM her time there, and one 30 in the afternoon. So I'm barely getting into my workday, and you're about to , hit , go to sleep. But, uh, yeah, so thanks Katrina for being on.

Katrine Rasmussen (00:00:37) - Well, thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Lee Murray (00:00:41) - Yeah, I'm excited about this conversation. So we were introduced by Laura Erum, um, from Dream Data, which was a great conversation. And, um, and you know, anybody's a friend of, uh, Laura. Laura is a friend of mine at this point because she's so, you know, fantastic at what she does. Uh, so we're here and we were discussing, you know, what should we talk about that could bring some value to our audience. And we kind of landed on this idea of talking about, um, ABM or account-based marketing. And, um, so to kind of set this up, I, I think this really is gonna be really hugely valuable for the marketing director, marketing vp, and even CMOs that are listening, um, at mid-level companies who are looking to get in front of and market themselves, sell themselves through to specific accounts. Um, and generally those are gonna be enterprise level, but you can take the same approach for a smaller type of company.

Lee Murray (00:01:34) - Um, so if that's you, you know, buckle in, I think we're gonna have a good, uh, conversation about AB b m marketing and the framework in which, um, a team should think about it. So with that, you know, um, I have a little bit ex of experience with AB B M I've, I've, you know, worked with supported teams that have deployed abm, um, but I'm by far not the expert on abm. And so I'm glad to have you here today to talk through it and sort of break it down for us. Let's start there. Where, what, what do you think about ABM as it relates to what you're doing in your world and your team? How would you describe what is abm? Right.

Katrine Rasmussen (00:02:11) - Um, great question to start us off. Um, well, account-based marketing, um, I think probably the most important thing to know, um, is that it's, it's sort of, sort of an opposite approach to, um, more traditional inbound. Um, you could, um, I hear this analogy all the time, right? Where inbound is basically fishing with a net, um mm-hmm. , you're going out, you're throwing a big net out, um, and you'll see what you are able to catch. You'll probably spend a lot of time sorting through all the, um, beats that are coming through until you find the leads that is a good match with what you do and your company. Um, so that's a lot of resources, right? That you spend on, um, just getting the net out and sorting through all the big fish, or sorry, all the, all the small fish, all the fish that are coming through, right?

Katrine Rasmussen (00:03:05) - Yeah. Whereas, um, count based, um, sort of the opposite is sort of, um, fishing for whales with a spear, right? Uh, not only do you know what type of whale that you're going for, uh, before you even get started, um, you probably know the name of the whale. It's, it's a specific whale that you're going after, right? And you know, that specific whale is a really good fit with what you're looking for, and you know that that whale might is gonna be able to feed you and your family for years to come. Um, yes. So that, I, I really like that analogy. Um, and so, so that's what we do at, at pixels. Um, ABM is, is a great framework for us because, uh, we work, um, relatively large enterprise accounts, uh, because we know that they are the best fit with the service that we offer.

Katrine Rasmussen (00:03:53) - Um, so instead of, um, doing more traditional inbound where we are just like sitting back, um, trying to attract these leads through, um, content, through paid search, organic, all of that, before we even get started on, um, our marketing, we know exactly who we're going after. And that's like, that's basically just a name list of, uh, target accounts of actual companies that we know that would be a great fit for our service and for what we do. And because we have, I mean, we have a, like I'm, I'm sure all listeners here, right? Everyone has a limited, um, resources, the limited team, right? Um, so, uh, for us at least, uh, we feel like that's the best use of our limited time and resources. It's basically to go out and do very customized, very personalized marketing toward the exact, um, accounts that we know would be a great fit for what, what we do, what we offer.

Lee Murray (00:04:53) - Yeah. That's great. That's such a great explanation. And I love the analogy of Phish. You know, it's exciting to think about on the outset because it's almost like you can become as a marketer, more of a scientist or an explorer, right? Where Yeah. You know, you get this analogy of hunting a whale. Well, it's almost like not only do you know the type of whale, but you know that it's actual name and you know where it lives or where it last was. Yep. And you're going to fu put your boat right on top of the waters where you think it's going to be, and then you want to know everything about the whale past this name. You wanna know it's way Exactly. You wanna know how fast it it runs. You wanna know all the details, because the more that you can know about the intricacies of the organization and how they make decisions and all of that, those things, those are all become power, you know, empowering to you and your team to do what you do to put the right things in front of them. Yeah. So I think that's, that's such a great analogy.

Katrine Rasmussen (00:05:46) - Yeah. Yeah. And I like how you would take it even further, because that's exactly what we do, right? For mm-hmm. , um, a lot of these accounts that we go after, we will have a very good understanding of what are the pain point, pain points mm-hmm. , um, what is the type of content that we need to get in front of them for them to be, to see us, uh, to get their attention.

Lee Murray (00:06:06) - Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's great. So that's a great start. And I think for anybody who doesn't know what ABM is, now you have a pretty good, pretty clear picture. Now you're gonna go whale hunting. Um, we're not throwing nets anymore, but all the other stuff that, you know, not that, you know, inbound and content marketing and SEO and all the things that's not, it's still good. That's all gonna add to it as sort of a foundational thing. Um, absolutely. But as you're building an ab m strategy, um, to, to go after a whale or five or 10 whales, maybe, um, what are, what are some of the major components that, you know, you should think about as, as you're sort of building a framework?

Katrine Rasmussen (00:06:45) - Right? Um, this is definitely a few things here. Um, probably the most important one, um, I'd say is sales, sales and marketing alignment. Um, so ABM just a name, right? It sort of implies that this is a marketing strategy and it's not, it's really not. This is a business strategy, it's a go to market strategy. Yes. And if you think that as, as a marketing person, right? If you're sitting there in your silos and you think that this is something that you can do by yourself, you're dead wrong. You need your, um, sales team involved in this. Um, cuz this gotta be a strategy that, um, marketing team, sales team, potentially even the CS team, right? Something that you do together, um, at least the way we do it, the way we work with it, um, for the account plans where we go, um, one, uh, where, where we do like very specific, very customized, one-to-one abm, um, um, campaigns, just to what one single company that is, um, something that we do with the sales team, uh, because most of the time it's the sales team that will have come to us and they'll have said, so, um, there's this, um, account, it's out there.

Katrine Rasmussen (00:08:00) - Um, can we work together on a strategy to get their attention to, um, speed up the sales process? How, how can we work together? So for me at least, it's, it's, um, it's, it's uh, very much a sales enablement strategy. Yes. Um, when, when we know, uh, the companies that we are going after. So it's gotta be something that you do with the sales team. We actually like to call it a B X, not abm, just to Ah, I like that. Yeah. Just to signal that. Um, so that's like account based experiences or account based.

Lee Murray (00:08:34) - Yes. I love that. I, I think that's such a great way to do it, knowing how, how much sales and marketing teams are already not aligned when it comes to regular marketing efforts. So to do that, it's almost like you're forming a new team. Um, yes. You know, that's part of us are, some of us are quote unquote marketers. Some of us are quote unquote sales. Um, so that's a great start because marketing, sales alignment really kind of is the fabric. You know, like, you have to have that under layman in order to make any progress. Cuz if there's miscommunication at all, then it's gonna be really crazy when you actually get into the efforts. I'm curious at the heart of what you're doing in building a strategy is, is it really focused around the complexity of the decisions that are made by the buyer? Is that really what you're building your strategy around? Like what you're solving for is, you know, cuz the way I think about it is like this, there's a decision that you need them to make to bring your company in at whatever level. Cuz sometimes it can be various different ways. Um, typically there's more than one decision maker. There's maybe multiple departments that have to make decisions or be brought into the conversation. So are you solving for that complexity in your strategy? Or is there another kind of central goal?

Katrine Rasmussen (00:09:51) - Um, I, I'd say somewhat. Okay. Um, but, and that kind of actually brings me to positioning. Um, cause I think positioning, communication, brand, all of that, like really, really knowing who, um, your ICP is, ideal customer profile is. Um, I mean, I think that's the actually the first thing that you need to have nailed mm-hmm. before you even get started. And, and the reason why I say that is before, um, a few years back, uh, before we really nailed our positioning, before we started our ABM efforts, we would try to sell to a number of, uh, buyers within an organization. So we sell at pixels, we do, uh, imagery touching at scale. Um, so we would, we would try to sell to, um, e-com directors, um, e-com, studio director, studio managers. And it took us a little while to realize that it's, this decision is always made within the studio.

Katrine Rasmussen (00:10:56) - And when we may had that realization, um, that really helped us to hone in on, uh, positioning on communication and the type of content that, the type of ABM strategy that we needed to, to work with. Ok. Um, so when I say sort of, it's because we know exactly who we're going after, right? Studio directors, studio manager, whoevers is in charge of, um, the photo studio. Okay. But, um, we also, um, and this is, this comes in handy, especially when we do, uh, run digital campaigns on, on LinkedIn, right? Um, so obviously for abm, um, to work, it's gotta be, you've got, you're going, you're most likely going out after very large companies, very large account, yes. Meaning that you are actually able to set up, uh, campaigns, um, on LinkedIn, it's only targeted work, one single company, and then narrow that down by, um, seniority, uh, role, uh, job title, all of that.

Katrine Rasmussen (00:12:00) - Um, so, so when I say that we sort of, uh, market to more than just the, the, the one, the decision maker, it's because you need 300 people in the Lin audience. Um, so we will reach, um, quite a few people within the organization, within the studio, maybe even, maybe we even have to reach out and reach people in marketing in e-commerce as well. Mm-hmm. . Um, so we do do that, but then we have other tactics where we will make sure that it's the, um, the, the decision maker that's in focus, and then the decision maker we'll communicate with.

Lee Murray (00:12:35) - Right. Okay. So do, do you think about it like you build your I C P and so you have this generalized idea of who you're going after and their needs and desires and et cetera. And then you look within the I ICP to see what character characteristics or character traits that this specific account you're going after, um, owns or, or has so that you can tailor your messaging to them? Is that the way you approach it?

Katrine Rasmussen (00:13:02) - Yeah, we, uh, we definitely do that once in a while. I mean, we do have, um, do have a few different frameworks. So we have the, like, the big target accounts. We also like to call 'em our green 100. Those are the ones that we really wanna get in front of, right? Mm-hmm. , we really wanna close our priority accounts for those. Um, it's gonna be a relatively, we, we do, we, we tend to, um, get new ones to switch those up once a quarter, right? So we may have like 10, 20 priority accounts, um, that, that where we build, uh, 1, 2, 1 ABM programs each quarter mm-hmm. . But for those, um, we will go in depth and we will learn, uh, what, what's their pain points, uh, what do they care about. Um, and, and then we will build out, right now we're working on a CSR report.

Katrine Rasmussen (00:13:49) - Cause we know that one of our target accounts are extremely focused on csr, and there's something that we need to have. Um, so we'll gladly build that, even though that's, um, a very big undertaking. But, but we know it's important for this specific account. And we also know of course, that, um, if it's not already important, I mean, if this is something that will become more and more important for, um, all the target accounts that we have as part of our target accounts. Right. Um, so, so I think even though we do do, um, a lot of content with just one specific account in mind, um, all of that content is very applicable to, um, the other target accounts mm-hmm. and even, um, accounts that are not necessarily identified as a target account, but may come in through some inbound activities. Um, so even though it's a lot of work to develop, um, very customized content to certain, um, accounts, which is one account, it might, it can be reused over and over and over.

Katrine Rasmussen (00:14:51) - Um, so we definitely go out, we'll do case studies, um, about, um, circular shopping, about, uh mm-hmm. footwear. Um, if we are trying to close, uh, one of those clients mm-hmm. , um, just to make sure that it's hyper targeted toward that target account that we have in mind. But again, um, it's, it is, I don't wanna say universally applicable, but Sure. Generally very applicable to most of the target accounts. And it is because we've done, um, a very thorough job before we started, uh, being hyper specific in terms of icp. Uh, we don't, we don't have, we don't have a very broad icp. Um, it's, it's very, very specific. So it means that, uh, the target accounts that falls within, um, that icp, they have a lot in common.

Lee Murray (00:15:41) - Yeah. That's really interesting. So you said you work on about 10 every quarter, you, you'll take 10, 10 new ones to dive deep on. Yeah. Okay. How do you guys determine whether you should go after two or 20, or how do you determine that number?

Katrine Rasmussen (00:15:57) - Uh, that's a good question, but, uh, I mean, this is, uh, so who we are going after and how many, that is something that, um, trickles down from the sales team. Right? Okay. Um, so I, it really depends on, uh, who's on the sales team, how busy are they, um, how many accounts do they need our help on mm-hmm. . And then of course, again, it depends on, um, how we're doing on the marketing team, um, what's the resources that we have available in terms of content, in terms of, um, digital marketing in, in, in terms of event marketing, in terms of all of these things. Because, um, so, so for example, right now we're building out that CSR report, right? That takes up, um, quite a bit of our time, but then we'll have it available next quarter whenever there's a new target account that that needs that.

Katrine Rasmussen (00:16:44) - So it depends on if we have a lot of this available already or if we have to sort of like, build it from scratch. And, and that's very different from, um, account to account. And it also really differs, um, uh, between like how far in the sales cycle are the accounts that we roll into the program. Some might never have heard of us. Yeah. So maybe that, like, that's an awareness play and some might be pretty far in the sales process already. Mm-hmm. , uh, where, uh, we can assist with, um, content landing pages, uh, whatever it could be.

Lee Murray (00:17:19) - Okay. Yeah. And then just for the audience to break that down a little further, I, I, I think what you're saying is some of your sales team may have reached out to X company and made inroads over the last three months, and they've taken it, the ball down the court for the most part now. Yeah. They see that the, the writings on the wall, they're, there's, they're maybe even in the pipeline and they wanna bring you guys in to support all those efforts. So the sales cycle for that may be three months. It, yeah. But if you just, if you're brought in the beginning for whatever reason, um, that that could end up being a six month or even 18 month Oh yeah. Timeframe, depending on the size and nature of what you're selling.

Katrine Rasmussen (00:17:54) - That's right. And we do, like I said before, it's enterprise, uh, b2b. We do have very long sales cycles, um, unfortunately sometimes a little too long. Um, but that's also one of the things that we try to accelerate, uh, through, um, aprm programs like this. Mm-hmm. . And I think, um, one thing that I think is interesting, and one thing that's, uh, tactic or goal of a lot of the work that we do as part of the ABM program mm-hmm. , um, I think when we, I mean, we're tech marketers, right? We work in software as a service. We, we are so used to everything being very digital. We're used to jumping on, um, zoom calls, uh, booking, uh, meetings, ruly, all of that. We, we think about ourselves as, um, very tech, tech minded and data driven and all of that. But I think when we work, uh, b2b, um, enterprise sales cycles complex product complex, like you were saying before, there might be several decision makers can be a very long process.

Katrine Rasmussen (00:18:59) - Right? I think one thing that we sometimes tend to forget when it comes to sales, um, is that good old fashioned, um, relationship building mm-hmm. , um, FaceTime Trust, um, all of those things that enter like B2B enterprise sales is right mm-hmm. . Um, so at least from a marketing perspective and, and through all of these ABM programs, one of the things that we, in the marketing team, we really, really help facilitate is to get our sales reps in front of our, um, ICP in front of our target accounts, um, in real life FaceTime. Mm-hmm. , uh, where they get to know each other, they get to, um, to trust each other. Sure. And they actually get to just meet and have a conversation around something else then mm-hmm. , um, retouching or studio or whatever it is. Right. And just build that very human relationship that, um, that's right. I think is a very, very big part of the sales process that I think we sometimes tend to forget. Cause we get so wrapped up in the process and the tech and all the digital things that we can do that we forget that maybe the most important component of, of selling, um, these big enterprise deals. It's basically just trust and the human relationships. Yeah.

Lee Murray (00:20:22) - Yeah. It's the human behind all of it. And I've been a part of a lot of those meetings, and I I would agree a hundred percent, it's sometimes it can be done much quicker whenever there's just someone in front of another person asking the right question. Yeah. Um, you know, and being forthright about what the next step is. Um, sales cycles are what they are. I mean, you can't, you can only influence it to the degree you can influence it. Yep. Um, but I think whether it's at the end of the sales cycle or the beginning, or anywhere in between, having a person in front of a person, yeah. A lot of those side conversations about the weather are about the industry or about, you know, the regulation that just came down and how do you feel about that and what's happening internally, all these side conversations, they make up, you know, this sort of gray matter that helps you make decisions on, um, how to reach them more intimately or more, more intentionally.

Katrine Rasmussen (00:21:11) - Absolutely. I,

Lee Murray (00:21:13) - I'm looking at my notes here, and so far I have sales and marketing alignment and positioning or communication brand, you know, knowing your I C P. Um, and basically relationships is the third one that I, that I'm, I'm writing down here is, you know, being human, making sure you're spending FaceTime, um, you know, actual in-person time. Um, where do we go next? What, what are the other components that we need to uncover?

Katrine Rasmussen (00:21:39) - Right? And I think I would just like to take this, um, like relationships, the trust. I'll just like to take that, um, little bit further. Sure. Just in terms of how do we actually do this? What are the tactics that we use to, to get the sales reps in, in front of, um, our icp Right. And build those relationships. Um, because I think, I mean, you've ever worked in sales, you know, how hard it is or how hard it can be to reach out, do those cold calls, um, and getting mm-hmm. , um, those target accounts to agree on a demo or a meeting or just anything. Right? They, they realize who you are and what you do, and, um, it's gonna be hard for you to get through if you're a sales rep. Right. Um, so what, what we do, uh, pixels, uh, we, we try to take a little bit of a different approach with that.

Katrine Rasmussen (00:22:25) - And that's where, um, event marketing or mm-hmm. , um, experience marketing, we like to call it, comes into the picture, right? Mm-hmm. . Um, so, um, we own, we, we host an a series of, um, owned events, um, that we take on the road. Uh, we, we, we will figure out, so where do we have, um, enough target accounts in a specific city, um, to host an event with a hundred and to 150 people, uh, attendees at that event, target accounts, ICPs, station makers, the ones that we really wanna get in front of, um, maybe the ones that the sales team has been trying to reach out to, but has not been able to get through to. Um, so we'll take a bit of a different approach, right? We'll, um, now we'll let the marketing team, um, reach out. We'll let the marketing team, um, reach out to the, um, decision maker and say, hi.

Katrine Rasmussen (00:23:18) - Um, we've noticed you, um, we are hosting this event in LA next month. Um, you have a very interesting profile. Would you like to come and be part of a panel or be your keynote speaker at the event? So we will fly them in, set them up in a nice hotel, um, to strike their ego a bit, right? Mm-hmm. . And what, what happens is that we'll have, um, all those, um, target accounts, decision makers in that room, um, at that event. It's a full day thing. Um, it's a, um, we pay a lot of attention to detail. It's, it's a fun event. There's gonna be a welcome party the day before. It's gonna be a v i p dinner. They, they the, um, the day at of the event. Um, and we get to spend full day in a room, uh, with, um, all these target accounts, uh, from within the community.

Katrine Rasmussen (00:24:08) - We get to build that community and host that, be the hero, right? Mm-hmm. , um, and our sales reps and our CSMs and our ceo, everyone, right? Will, not everyone within our company, but we'll be like around 20, 25 people from pixels there. And we'll interact with them. We'll build relationships, we'll build community, um, and, and, and we'll, uh, get that FaceTime and build those relationships and build that trust. And it sounds, when I talk about it like this, uh, it sounds, I don't know if it sounds a little cold as a tactic, but it's also just an amazing way to build a community and bring people together For sure. And, and, and have all that human interaction, which we all really, really enjoy. Um, so that, that's one way, um, we, we use, uh, ABM and the marketing team to really facilitate, uh, building that trust and building that relationships with the entire team and with the company, essentially.

Lee Murray (00:25:06) - Yeah. It's not cold at all. I think you're, you're leaning into a warmth, you know, you're, you're building warmth with, um, with context. One thing I'm thinking about is, okay, um, just for clarity, I think, is when you host an event like this, are you inviting one whale to the event? Or are you inviting multiple whales to an event?

Katrine Rasmussen (00:25:25) - No, no. Multiple. We'll be, um, somewhere between a hundred and hundred and 50 attendees. Um, and it's gonna be a good mix of, obviously we are gonna have pixels people there. We'll have a few of our, our partners. Yes. Uh, we'll invite existing customers, um, that's already, um, in that city. Right. Um, and then we'll reach out and invite 10, 15 target accounts from Yes. Uh, within that area or even more. Um, so mm-hmm. , uh, it's approval only. Right. Um, so we'll get to control who, who's at the event, uh mm-hmm. , but, but it's important that it's, um, it's a community. Um, yes. And, and that there's like a good variety with, with, at the event.

Lee Murray (00:26:07) - Yeah. So I have this sort of diagram that I show my clients usually whenever I kick off working with them. And it's a simple kind of, um, you know, at the top it's the, the, the buyer and stakeholders, influencers, you know, different people that go into making the decision. At the bottom is the brand. You know, that's where you and your company, your team, your culture. And on one side you have your clients. Um, and then on the other side you have your referral partners, allies, you know, people. So if you

Katrine Rasmussen (00:26:34) - Ecosystem

Lee Murray (00:26:35) - Yeah. It's an ecosystem, you know? And so what's cool about it is what you wanna do is you wanna, um, engage and support all the conversations that are happening between all these parties. And the best way to do it is through an event. If you have an event, you can invite all of those people, they can all talk amongst themselves and, um, great things come from it. I mean, great ideas for content comes from it, great. Re you know, next steps with actual buyers come from it. Um, and, you know, the other people that are part of the ecosystem will continue and start, start and continue to sell for you. Um, so there's, there's so much that happens whenever you get people together and you are the host.

Katrine Rasmussen (00:27:16) - Very true. Um, and, and one of the things about our events is that we do not talk about ourselves. Mm-hmm. , we do not blog out a one hour, um, slot in the middle to just demo our product. Right. We don't do that. It's, it's not why we are doing this. Right. Um, so what sometimes happen, and we see that in the survey is that, um, especially for those companies that don't know us so well, they will actually put in the survey, they'll say, Hey, we'd love to see, um, a demo of pixels. We're a little bit sad that we didn't get to experience that at the event. Right. Um, and what better opportunity for the sales reps go to reach out and given the demo, um, they're asking for it. Um, so

Lee Murray (00:28:03) - You've built up enough demand in that event that they actually want what you want to give them.

Katrine Rasmussen (00:28:08) - Exactly. So that's beautiful. Yeah.

Lee Murray (00:28:10) - , it's great. Is it is beautiful. It's a beautiful thing, ,

Katrine Rasmussen (00:28:13) - And you're right about, uh, the ecosystem and the partners and all of that, because most of the time, right, it's not our sales reps selling at that event, it's our, um, existing customers, it's our partners, it's, it's, um, all those people that know us so well. So, um mm-hmm. , it, it, it's just, um, just comes together very nicely.

Lee Murray (00:28:32) - It does. Yeah. It's such, it's such a great thing. And, you know, you can't help but birth community out of that because everyone's talking to everyone. And as long as you give them a platform to continue those conversations in some way, um, then you are doing some, you're, you're, you're putting yourself, I mean, you're, you're, your service has to be good. Your technology has to be good. All the things that you're selling ha have to be good. Cuz otherwise we've all just had a great time, met a lot of people, but what's the point? Right? But assuming you have a good technology and, and a good product, um, then you are laying the, the foundation for, um, years and years and years of sustainable growth, um, because you are the lead, you are the host. Yeah. And I love that. I love that a lot.

Katrine Rasmussen (00:29:15) - Definitely.

Lee Murray (00:29:17) - So, so relationships in community and events as a mechanism. Um, what else should they be thinking about? Is there anything else? What are the other major components that you think about when you put your framework together?

Katrine Rasmussen (00:29:31) - Right? Um, I guess that's one thing that we should probably have touched upon a little bit earlier in the conversation. Ok. . And that's ba and that, and that's basically, um, is abm, is that a framework or a strategy that makes a lot of sense for you, um, and the business that you're running? Uh, because I, I, I just wanna stress that in order to do that, right, in order to just, um, have a very, very narrow list of, uh, target accounts that you're going after, um, you need to know that those deals that you're gonna close are gonna be large enough to be worth it. Right. Um, so if you're small bus going after small businesses, mid-market, it's a, it is a volume game, right? Mm-hmm. , um, and you need volume, um, to, to run your business to grow. For us, though, I think we've realized that it's not volume, it's not the amount of customers that we have that is actually going to take us to the next level.

Katrine Rasmussen (00:30:33) - When we started looking at our data and our numbers, um, we realized that if we wanna expand this business, if we wanna grow, we need to close those whales, um, to actually take, take us that step further. And just looking at our data, um, this year, right in, in q1, um, 56% of all our revenue came from only 2% of our customers. Hmm. And so I think it's just important, um, to, to keep that in mind, that if, whether ABM is a strategy or a framework that's going to work for you, um, you gotta work very large deals. Um, you gotta have, um, enterprise customers. Yeah. Um, if not, it's probably not the best strategy because you might end up wasting a lot of time, um, on clients that are not actually gonna bring that much revenue. So I think that's, uh, uh, sort of like a prereq obviously, to, to even go ahead and do this. Um, it's just like that, something to keep in mind for

Lee Murray (00:31:32) - Sure. I like it. And I, I think it's, you know, gets back to the, what's the strategy for the business first? Yes. You know, what's the model that you guys are? Cuz it might make sense for the trajectory you that you're on, for the shareholders that are involved for, you know, all the different parties, that 2% of ma making up 56% is a good thing. Um, but for another business and another industry with different stakeholders, it might not be a good thing. So, you know, that business decision is important. Um, and that kind of leads me into a question I had. I think a lot of bonafide marketers that are really want to be, you know, worth their role and growing in their role, um, is how to measure success. Mm-hmm. . So, you know, I think that's a, that's a, that's a business question too, no matter, you know, what the stakes are. Um, with an ABM strategy, how do you approach measuring results, you know, I guess in general, but then differently than you would in other type of marketing, um, plan?

Katrine Rasmussen (00:32:33) - Right. That's a great, really good question. Um, because I, well, at least the way we work, right? Um, we, every single day, every single week, every single month, we'll look at, um, well, we look at MQs, but we also look at pipeline, inbound, outbound, we look at close one bookings, inbound, outbound. The what, what you need to keep in mind with, um, ABM is that for all the target accounts that we have in our system, we use HubSpot, don't have any fancy, um, ABM software that gets very, very expensive. And I think you need to have, um, more target account speaker sales team that what we do, um, for that, that to make sense, right? We work well in HubSpot. It's, it's fine. Sure. But what, what you need to keep in mind from a, a marketing perspective, because we like to go in and look at, um, things like, um, less touch to see, was this a MPL that was brought in by, um, marketing?

Katrine Rasmussen (00:33:33) - But for us at least, what we'll do when we start an ABM program is that we'll import all the target accounts into HubSpot. So, uh, there's never gonna be a first touch or a last touch, well, maybe a last touch, but this not a first touch, right. That is brought by marketing. Mm-hmm. , everything is essentially, um, gonna, um, be outbound because it was, it's all outbound. It's, yeah. It's, it's, it's an import, it was a sales team, right? So how, how do we judge that? So I think one thing that is important, and same, same goes with event, actually, especially owned events. Um, the event itself is never gonna be the first touchpoint. It's gonna be, um, maybe direct be No, exactly. There's no way it could be, it's just not possible. Right. When we, when we look at, um, the numbers. So, um, and that's where dream data, uh, which is an attribution tool that we use comes into play.

Katrine Rasmussen (00:34:23) - Yeah. Okay. Um, because we, like I've said before, we have, uh, at least we can have very long sales cycles. They can be anywhere from, um, 90 days to two years. So, um, what I like to do in Dream Day, in Dream Data, you can go in, you can look at the, um, deal or the account, and you can see every single touchpoint mm-hmm. , um, across contexts, um, ac across, um, channels across everything, right? So we have a very nice visual representation. And then you can go in and you can, um, sort on different attribution models. You can look at linear, first touch, last touch, data driven, all of that. Um, so what, what we do, so we, we, we also, we import, um, lists from HubSpot directly into Brain Data. So any list that has, um, attended an event in the list name, uh, they will show up as a channel event, will be able to tell that they, they signed up for an event, they attended an event, did they, uh, did, did we close the deal?

Katrine Rasmussen (00:35:28) - Was the deal added to Pipeline mm-hmm. , um, was it, did it become business at some point? So we're actually able to go in and for every single, um, um, event that we are looking at, we are able to see, um, who, who, who has, uh, who, who has closed, uh, who's still in pipeline, what's the sales cycles like, is it shorter, longer than the other ones that didn't come to an event? And it's, um, similar thing with abm, right? And, um, I think probably the beautiful thing about ABM at least is the scale that we do, which is not super big or super large scale, right? Mm-hmm. , um, 10 accounts each quarter or maybe a little bit more than that. Um, we, I mean, we have those marked as target accounts in HubSpot. Um, we know exactly who they are. Uh, we'll know, I mean, we'll know if it closes, right? Because it has such high value, right? And so, so, so in that sense, it's really not that difficult to track because you know who, that's right. They're work on them for a while, you know, that pain points, you know, them in and out. Um, so, um, they'll have a proper team, HubSpot right? Their target account, you'll see what tier they are. Um, so it's, it's not, it's not super, super complicated, at least the scale that we run these programs at to know whether a target account has closed or not.

Lee Murray (00:36:49) - So yeah, it's very, it's not completely manual, but it is sort of, because it's incremental, because you've got at least probably three to five people always looking at that every single day. Yeah. I would think it's, oh yeah. You know, that's all, that's your whole work is to try to get this account closed. Yes. So you don't need all the, you know, um, connections behind the scenes that bring it to light. You, you, you see it, it's transparent. So Exactly. And then in that regard, I, I, I agree. Um, as you were talking, I, it, it kind of came to mind, and this is a little bit off the topic of, um, of measuring success, but, um, while I do agree events are, you know, primo, they're, they're like gold for bringing everything together. What would you say is the typically, like, do you have an inception point where do you want to get people to an event first or do you just want them to get to an event at some point? Or how, how much are events part of your strategy versus, you know, sending cold emails, getting on the phone, or, you know, stalking them on LinkedIn or whatever it may be?

Katrine Rasmussen (00:37:55) - Well, we do all of those things . Sure, sure. Yeah. Um, I think, um, I mean, I wish I was able to tell you that we wanna get, uh, this account, um, to an event, uh, when they breach the awareness stage. And they're, isn't this far in the sales cycle, but mm-hmm. , um, at least the way we run things, right? Uh, we'll have four of the larger events every year. Uh, this year we've had, we, we already had one in la, next one is coming up in Berlin next week, then we'll have, um, New York and London and, um, I mean, since we only have four events, I mean, where that account is gonna be in their lives, uh, lifecycle states. Right. Um, I see. It's unfortunately, it's not necessarily something we're able to control in that much detail. So I

Lee Murray (00:38:45) - Planned Yeah,

Katrine Rasmussen (00:38:46) - Yeah, yeah. Abso absolutely, absolutely. So, I mean, so I guess it's more a matter of actually getting them there, getting in front of them. Yes. Um, and, and, and we don't, um, even if they, we just, they just closed, right? They've just become a customer. We'll definitely still want 'em to go there cause Yes. Um, I mean, relationships are still mm-hmm. the most important thing, right? Yes.

Lee Murray (00:39:08) - Yeah. Okay. So that, that frames it a little bit, a little bit better for me, I think, is, you already know you have these events coming up, so you have these very pivotal moments that if we can get them there, then that's gonna be, you know, heavy in lifting the relationship and the deal. Yeah. Um, and,

Katrine Rasmussen (00:39:24) - And it might inform where, where we're gonna have the next event might actually inform which target accounts do we pick this quarter. Yes. Then we'll pick target accounts that are in the vicinity of Yeah, that makes so much sense now. West Coast, east Coast, Europe, so forth. Right. So

Lee Murray (00:39:39) - That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Cuz you can really dial in resources. Um, is your team distributed, um, globally? Are you all in one place?

Katrine Rasmussen (00:39:49) - No, no, no. We have very global team, the marketing team at this point. We are few people in Copenhagen, few people in Hanoi. Um, one person in Prague, one person in pup, one person in Barcelona. Okay. Yeah. Um, we don't have anyone in the US at this moment because trying to run, um, meetings, like weekly meetings with people in Asia, Europe and us, that's a bitch.

Lee Murray (00:40:10) - . That can be tough. That can be tough. You'd be working 24 7.

Katrine Rasmussen (00:40:14) - Oh yeah. But we've, we've got, um, sales and um, cs, um, obviously in, um, across, uh, Europe and US as well. And that's also, even though our market is global, I mean, we have to really prioritize our resources, right? So, um, even though we have customers all over the place where we do our marketing and our sales efforts, that's in, in EU or in Europe and in us. And that's basically because that's where we have our, um, CS and, and and sales teams.

Lee Murray (00:40:46) - Gotcha. Yeah. So, um, you know, this is a, this is grow such a great breakdown by the way. I really, I really appreciate it. I think people listening to this are gonna get so much value because if they're just kind of opening the door to abm, um, this is such a great framework for them to, to understand it and, and maybe even adopt some of it. They may already be doing a lot of these things, but not thinking about them in this way, which I see be the case a lot. So, you know, you know, is there anything else you wanna say? Are, are, are we missing anything here for, for the kind of like this high level ABM discussion?

Katrine Rasmussen (00:41:20) - I think just very high level, just one thing I'd like to, to uh, mention as well. We do work, uh, at least we try to work a lot with, uh, our LinkedIn presence, um, social selling. I think that's also an amazing way of, um, establishing ourselves and our sales leaders, our CS teams as thought leaders, um, and also building relationships in community. So that's another big component. And we obviously, we use that a lot as well when it comes to, um, attracting the right, um, accounts to our events. Um, so that's the thought leadership, the branding, um mm-hmm. , the, the social selling part of it. So we do spend, um, a lot of resources and a lot of time not only posting from our company account, but really encouraging and helping, um, entire team to be very active, um, all across LinkedIn.

Lee Murray (00:42:19) - That sounds like a great next discussion. If I could have you back, we can dive into that. Cause I, I think that sort of like the content, the content side, that it sort of becomes a repository of content that can be utilized across the organization. I think brand is, has similarities. And if you're on LinkedIn and you as a company and you're very intentional about how you're doing it, you're supporting all of the different people, um, that are part of ABM or, or your sales team. Um, there's, it's sort of like the rising tide lifts all boats again, you know, you mm-hmm. , all the efforts that are happening there can be dialed in for certain roles and certain accounts, but they're going to lift other people who are in on the bubble or the outskirts of buying.

Katrine Rasmussen (00:43:01) - Absolutely.

Lee Murray (00:43:03) - That's great. This has been such a great conversation. I I very much appreciate it and I, I definitely wanna have you back and dive deeper into, um, the social selling part of it. Um, and maybe, maybe even multiple getting into some of these other ones. I think there's so much to, this is such an exciting topic for me, uh, personally, because again, like to the nature of this channel exploring growth, like, I think as an A B m uh, strategy, it's about exploration to find the, the key that unlocks that account, right? Mm-hmm. So it's very, you know, it's, it's very intriguing about, you know, you can use the same channels, you can use the same methods, but this is a whole different beast because it's one, you know, it's a different company than the last company. They, they all are not the same. So it kind of, you know, gives you a new sense about the same work, which can be exciting. So.

Katrine Rasmussen (00:43:57) - Very true.

Lee Murray (00:43:59) - Well, thanks again. And we will, um, link your LinkedIn down below. Um, we can also link to pixels, um, dot com. Your, your company. Uh, any anything else you want us to throw in the description?

Katrine Rasmussen (00:44:14) - Um, I think that's probably about it.

Lee Murray (00:44:17) - Okay. If people wanna reach you, LinkedIn's probably the best place.

Katrine Rasmussen (00:44:19) - Definitely.

Lee Murray (00:44:21) - Great. Thanks again. And, um, we'll have to do this again.

Katrine Rasmussen (00:44:26) - Sure. And thank you so much for having me.

Lee Murray (00:44:29) - Hey, thanks again for tuning in. Um, I hope you're getting value out of this. Uh, if you didn't know, we have an email newsletter that follows this podcast, um, exploring growth newsletter. If you go to harvard murray.com and you click on podcast at the top, you'll see a little submission box there about quarter of the way down. You can sign up for the email. Um, every week I literally sit down and write my thoughts of what's going through my head at the, at the moment, you know, things that I'm dealing with, with clients, um, you know, concepts that I'm learning or deployed that have worked. Um, I, I talk about everything that, that marketing, sales, uh, customer success, everything in between. So if that's something that you're interested in, uh, reading or, um, subscribing to definitely go there and check that out.