Recruiting Top Sales Talent for Small Service Based Businesses with Mark Stewart

This week's Exploring Growth Episode features Mark Stewart, an expert in hiring salespeople for small businesses and startups. This discussion revolves around the dos and don'ts of hiring quality people, primarily focusing on sales roles.

Listen as Mark shares his insights on the common mistakes small businesses make when hiring salespeople, the importance of hiring people who are different from you, and how to identify and recruit top talent for sales roles. We also explore the challenges associated with hiring friends or family members, stressing the importance of establishing clear boundaries between personal and professional relationships.

Thank you for watching. If you are enjoying what you hear, please consider sharing it with a colleague or a friend.

Have a guest recommendation, question, or just want to connect?
Go here: https://www.harvardmurray.com/exploring-growth-podcast

Connect on LinkedIn:
Lee - https://www.linkedin.com/in/leehmurray
Mark - https://www.linkedin.com/in/thenewsalesmen

Speaker 0 (00:00:00) - Welcome back to Exploring Growth Podcast. So glad you're here. If you are a small service based business, trying to hire your first or maybe third salesperson, um, this episode's for you.

Speaker 0 (00:00:13) - All right, welcome back, everybody. Exploring Growth. We're glad everybody's here. I've got a great guest on today, Mark Stewart. And, um, we, this is another one of those where we're out in the, you know, LinkedIn spheres, inter spheres, and we find each other and start chatting. Uh, and so that's kinda how this came together. And, um, and I'm glad to have him here today because I think today's discussion is gonna be very beneficial for primarily the small businesses or startup businesses. Um, if you're, if you're, you know, running a mid-size company, don't tune out just yet, cuz I think there's a lot of value you can take from what we're gonna talk about as well. But, but, but really geared towards, he's had a lot of, you know, good background in, in startups and, and, and working with smaller businesses. And, um, right now, um, Mark's, Mark's been with, uh, field Routes for, um, a number of years, almost six years.

Speaker 0 (00:01:05) - Uh, he's working with field route routes as a software platform that helps service-based businesses, um, do a lot of things. And he has been primarily in a sales role in which he is in now, uh, and has been, you know, like hiring a lot of sales people, hiring a lot of different people have been part of the hiring process. So when we got to talking, we thought, you know, what we should talk about is something that's, he's kind of built an expertise in over the time, and that is hiring people, but kind of respective to sales. You know, this, this is one of those topics that, um, it doesn't really matter how big of a company you are, you always have this need where, you know, who do we get to come on board that is high quality, can, can go out neither hunt, fish, you know, gather, whatever, however, you know, methodology you go about. And that will stick, you know, to the culture and be part of the company, um, and, you know, and perform. Right? Um, I mean, I know in my company it's been a challenge too, uh, being small to, to give over some of that sales. Um, you know, th those, those roles, you know, when it's just easy for me to do it. Um, so that's what we're gonna talk about today. And so with, with that introduction, welcome Mark

Speaker 1 (00:02:20) - . Thank you so much. I'm glad to be here.

Speaker 0 (00:02:23) - Yeah. So let's, let's get into it. Um, you know, prior to this we were talking about, um, kind of, I guess the, the moniker I'd give is like the dos of don't, the dos and don't of hiring quality people. Again, we're kind of, kind of stick to sales a little bit because I think that's a big need, but I'm sure it will bleed into other roles. Um, let, you know, kick us off here. Like what is it, when, when you think about hiring salespeople, what, what's the number one thing that comes to mind where you, you say, okay, if, if any company just knew that they could just do this, then that would kind of get them launched.

Speaker 1 (00:02:58) - Oh, a hundred percent. And I'll give you a little background to it. At Field Routes, you know, I was employee number 19, so I saw it off, and now we have over 200 employees. So I've helped a lot, uh, with our company. But before I worked at Fortune 500 companies where I was a manager and helped hire a lot of, you know, young sales talent. And I've done it for multiple companies at this point. But a lot of this expertise kind of comes from seeing thousands of companies, mm-hmm. and seeing, you know, hearing the stories of my best friend calling and saying, oh, this has falling apart and this is why. And, and so that's the kind of thing, the, the number one mistake. Um, I think when, when you just said that the number one mistake I see, and it happens with me too, I'm not saying we're perfect.

Speaker 1 (00:03:40) - Right? And this doesn't go for everybody. I'm not sitting here saying, this is what everyone needs to do. But hiring your best friend from college or um, family, that is usually where I see a lot of these mistakes, uh, happen. Now, there's, there's a lot of things that I see it done right. And how they do it, but that's probably the number one thing that I personally have problems with. Cuz I wanna hire my best friend. Like, Hey, we hung out in college. It was, it was a lot of fun. Why? Why don't we do that in business? Yeah.

Speaker 0 (00:04:08) - So what's the problem? I mean, what's the problem? Why can't I hire my best friend?

Speaker 1 (00:04:12) - Yeah. Do you think, not a big deal, but I think the problem is when I've seen it done wrong, is the expectations are different. Like you hiring your best friend, I'm expecting you to work, you know, just as hard as I work. And that person hiring says I only wanna work half as hard, , you know, and then all of a sudden you figure that out three months into it. Yeah. And then there's all kinds of problems. And so I think that the people that do it right have like an expectation up front, this is what I'm expecting you to do and this is the results I need from you. If you don't have these results, I need you to leave. Like, I don't wanna fire you cuz you're my best friend. Yeah. But if you're not doing this, we can't, you can't continue working here like in advance. Yeah. I need to understand. And then they need to come to you and be like, that's ridiculous, . You know? Yeah. Then you can have that discussion, but have it at the beginning.

Speaker 0 (00:05:04) - Yeah. You know, nothing thing that sticks out to me when, when you're talking is, could you know if you're gonna hire this person, could you fire them? And if the answer's no or it would be really difficult, then you might have to think twice about hiring them.

Speaker 1 (00:05:16) - Oh, absolutely. And then I hear a lot of stories like from the other end, the people that get hired by their best friend, sometimes you manage someone differently because, hey, you're my best friend, I'm gonna say this really terrible thing to you, to your face. Mm-hmm. , you know, or I'm gonna be harder on you cuz I know you, or I'm gonna be easier on you because I know you. Right. Right. Either one is extremely bad,

Speaker 0 (00:05:39) - Right? Yeah. When the conversation turns from, you know, it turns to bro, you know, , then you probably have losing some kind of quality to the, the employment aspect of a, a friend or even a family member being in that role. My my guess is that instead what you want to do is look for the most qualified person for that role. So, I don't know, you tell me

Speaker 1 (00:06:05) - A Absolutely. I think that's who now one thing that kind of hit my, triggered me when you said that, uh, before, just, just kind of staying on that one subject one more time, is I have a lot of friends who, uh, join a family business mm-hmm. , that's kind of a, that, that happens often. I see it done extremely well, you know, so mm-hmm. , there's, but the number one, uh, reoccurring theme I hear every time someone leaves because they're upset or whatever mm-hmm. , they say, I can't get away from the business. Like I'm, I'm, I'm, you know, it's Thanksgiving, we're hanging out as a family and they're asking, Hey, how was your sales? You know, last month there's, you know, everything

Speaker 0 (00:06:41) - Bleeds together.

Speaker 1 (00:06:43) - Yeah. I think there needs to be a line when you are talking to your friend, your family, it's after five, it's outside of the office. It is, yeah. Completely gone. Boundaries. Yeah. So I've had a lot of family members leave just, just from that low business was still good. It's just they couldn't take a mental break. Right. And I feel like as long as you kind of understand that, that could probably help, but, but no, uh, what, what was your question earlier? Cuz I'm sorry that triggered one more thing.

Speaker 0 (00:07:11) - Well, no, yeah. I mean, I, I think that the opposite of hiring. Well, you know, honestly, that brings up a a, a idea in my head that why do people hire their best friend? Because they're right there. They, they're having beers with 'em, they're talking sports with them. They're, you know, they're doing whatever they're doing together and they're talking about their business and they need help and it's the easy route. Or for what, what seems like the easy route is like, well, you need extra work. You need a job, or, you know, I could pay you. Hey, this will be great. You know, just come help me. And they're not really thinking about the business, you know, first they're thinking about any easy sort of hack to not have to go through the uncomfortable process of diligently looking at who should I hire, who's the best candidate, bringing them on, onboarding them and, and making it more of, of a formal, uh, legitimate thing that's gonna suit them in their business. It's just an easy hack. I don't know, you tell me. Is it, is that, you know, why would someone wanna hire their best friend?

Speaker 1 (00:08:12) - You're, I think you're, I think you're right on the right track cuz I worked at a career builder for a time, so they gave me thousands of hours of training about how to hire people, especially salespeople. So it kind of comes from this, people like to hire that are people that are like them. Like, hey, that's right. I like you, you look like me. You act like me. We could hang out together. This sounds great. Mm-hmm. , that is a huge problem because mm-hmm. , if you get, um, there's all these studies across the board that, you know, if you have all men in the office, you're gonna have problems. If you have all women in the office, if you need a variety of people that have different ideas, different backgrounds that look different from you, and so mm-hmm. , all of a sudden when you have people that look different, act different, think differently, your, your company grows like crazy .

Speaker 1 (00:09:03) - And so even I have to mentally think when I'm talking to this person, uh, a a trick is you have a standardized way of, uh, interviewing someone. It's not what kind of color do you like? And , why, what if you're a fruit, what would you be, you know? Yeah. All those kind of dumb questions you're asking because you're bored, you know, is not the kind of question you need to have standard questions and a reason for them and judge people the same way, you know, across the board. And so that's kind of part of it is not hiring someone that acts like you, that looks like you is, is gonna help your company grow tremendously. Cuz they're gonna look at things from a different perspective. Yeah. And it's gonna make your company grow. But I think that's the main reason why you hire your best friend. Yeah. Because I know I get along with this person, but you gotta think, I don't care about after five . Yes. You know, that doesn't matter. What matters is the time that they're working, are they capable, especially

Speaker 0 (00:10:01) - If you're wanting to turn a profit. I I think that you're right though, like, hiring people that are not like you is also hard because it's easy to, to just sit in front of somebody that gets you, you get them, it, it, everything is easy. Um, but, but listening to someone come at a problem with a different perspective is hard because it's not how you come at it. Um, you know, or bringing a different skillset or a different level of a skillset, uh, you know, it can make you feel like, okay, you know, where's the value that I have? But, um, I think, I think all that stuff is very important for, you know, not only not hiring people that you are friends with or love, but, um, it works sometimes, right? Sometimes there are relationships that, that it is, it does work, it's amicable and you cannot talk about work after, after hours.

Speaker 0 (00:10:55) - But I think by and large, um, you know, building your business from scratch, legitimately, you know, looking out in the marketplace and saying, you know, who's out there that actually has a high level of skill would filter the culture that we're, we're putting together and can produce. Again, if we're talking about sales, you don't wanna be having these, you know, target meetings or report meetings, quasi report meetings, you know, over dinner. You want to have 'em in a business environment, uh, where it can stay there and the performance is judged, um, more black and white. Um, so, you know, I think talking to people, trying to hire people that are not necessarily like you is a really difficult thing. A lot of people don't wanna be around people that are not like them just personally. So, you know, that's, that's just kind of innately you want to gravitate towards the people that you like.

Speaker 1 (00:11:50) - Yep. You're, you're, you're spot on. It's funny because everything is changing, you know, constantly. Because when I first started, you know, my manager hiring career, it was always hire your friends, tell all your friends about the company, bring them in. You know, so that was a, that's been a thing for a long time, but mm-hmm. , you know, there's always a positive and negative with that. So I do think when I've been in like the Fortune 500 companies and mm-hmm. , they've also just helped with them with consulting. And I find that most managers do hire their best friends. Yeah. And that's why you have some bad culture go going on. So yeah. Smaller companies, you can kind of keep track of it because when I'm gonna hire someone, at least three other people have to interview them to make sure they actually are a good candidate. And somehow bigger companies you sometimes forget, uh, forget that that's important. So I'm just gonna hire my best friend. And regardless how good they do , uh, they're gonna say in that job. And that's, uh, you know, that's obviously a problem. So, um, yeah.

Speaker 0 (00:12:53) - So let's, let's switch gears here for a minute and talk about hiring sales reps, right? Yeah. So like, let's say your small company owner's done a lot of the selling him or herself, and now they're gonna replace themselves with a salesperson. Or maybe you have a salesperson that's not working out and you need a new one. What are the kind of main attributes that you're looking for in a good, solid sales person? I mean, when you're, when you're trying to put that together, what would you tell people?

Speaker 1 (00:13:23) - Oh man. The, you could probably write a whole book on that there,

Speaker 0 (00:13:28) - Got lots of books written on it. . Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:13:29) - There's a lot of books written on that. But I would, if I was gonna say one thing, um, I would definitely ask them to sell you something. Now, it's funny because I always hate it when people talk about salespeople. They say, Hey, look at this movie, that movie where this salesperson's a complete liar and this one's a fraud. And yeah. So I hate the, you know, sell me a pin analogy. It just drives me, it drives me insane. But yeah. Uh, personally I find when I ask them to sell me whatever they were selling before mm-hmm. , um, from their context, I can tell 'em who am I? What kind of customer am I am, you know? Mm-hmm. , if we go through that kind of scenario and you see their, their thought process, you know mm-hmm. , how they go about it, that usually tells you right away if they're a good salesperson or not. I've had many people say, I can't do it. . Yeah. And I was like, well, if you can't do it now, I don't think you're gonna be able to do it.

Speaker 0 (00:14:21) - Yeah. Yeah. That's a great point. And I like that approach because if they are currently selling for another company, then even if they don't do it really well because they're on the spot, or you know, they weren't anticipating doing it or nervous or something, at least in a sort of semi failed way, they're gonna reveal their methodology behind how, how do they approach a sale? You know? And if you, the the interview interviewer, you know, the person who's potentially gonna have to manage the salesperson and know anything about sales, you want to know, do they have a pedigree for understanding how to go about prospecting? How to, you know, find new leads on their own if they need to. Um, how to get into, um, actually how they put the sale together. What, what, you know, how they approach proposals, assuming, you know, cuz I think a lot of times you wanna hire a good salesperson for your company.

Speaker 0 (00:15:13) - You wanna hire from other companies that are selling, maybe not your product or competitor's product, but a similar type of sale. If it's a service sale, then you want someone who sold a service. If it's a product internally, you know, you want someone to sold a product. So if you, if you know anything about sales and you are interviewing this person, you're gonna be able to, I think through that, that method, you're gonna be able to pick up some of the things that they already know and you'll try to figure out, well, the, where do they land in terms of how far we need to bring them?

Speaker 1 (00:15:43) - Yep. Bit, bit big time. And they'll always say, well, I'll do the presentation. I said, well, give me, you know, just quick two minute presentation. Like, don't, don't, don't gimme the whole thing and what's the next step? What's the next step? And then at the end I always say no three times mm-hmm. . And then if they make it through three times, I, I'm nice enough and say, okay, yes, I'll buy it right now, . You know, but yeah, if they, if they at least work through it a little bit. Yeah. Not pushy, not mean not, you know, oh, you're an idiot if you don't say , you know? Yeah. If they have some sort of real methodology of asking, you know, asking why overcoming objections, say no. Yeah. Just something, anything, then I know I can take 'em the rest of the way because That's right. I'm not expecting them to be perfect, you know? Right. If someone's perfect, then I know they're, they're just acting , you know, I'm not really looking for an actor. I'm looking for someone who genuinely understands the process and I can teach 'em the rest of the way.

Speaker 0 (00:16:39) - What about somebody who doesn't have any kind of formal training? Like, I know back in the day when I w worked at Cintas Corporation, um, as an outside sales rep, I got formally trained and it's really where I, I draw on a lot of my, um, the way I approach a B2B sale. And, uh, it was invaluable, that training, um, someone who doesn't have that level of training, they're coming from maybe another small business, um, is that someone that you wanna be sitting in front of? Or you, you would, you would look at as a candidate for sales? Or, you know, do you think companies really should be looking for someone who has a pedigree?

Speaker 1 (00:17:16) - Yeah, I mean it, these, these days, I mean, before I would always hire someone that had one or two years of experience, you know mm-hmm. , but you don't get that luxury , you know, anymore. You, you're trying to talk anybody into it. A, a teacher, uh, someone who's waiting your table . Mm-hmm. like, Hey, would you like to do sales? You know, so yeah. It is, uh, anybody and everybody. So for me, I think at the end of the day, for us, it's do they have the capability to do it? And how I train a lot of our, even our customers, when I tell 'em about hiring, you need to have levels. So you have zero experience. You don't know sales at all. You're coming in at level one and here's, you know, here's your pay, here's what I'm expecting, and my job is to get you to level two and level three. And then eventually when you're really good at sales, you're gonna make, you know, this much money. Like, that's my expectation. So you're kind of helping them through that. And so with the understanding of what level are they, and I'm gonna pay them for the level they are, and I'm gonna help them get better and better is the key. So I love hiring people with zero experience .

Speaker 0 (00:18:26) - Ok.

Speaker 1 (00:18:27) - Um, one of, cause

Speaker 0 (00:18:28) - Then they're trainable.

Speaker 1 (00:18:30) - Exactly. One of, one of the success at Field Routes was we took people that were non salespeople and turned them into salespeople because sales is not, uh, I got convinced you to do something, it's just mm-hmm. , all it really is, is presenting, this is how I can help you. You know, and people that can do that. You don't have to have a sales background to be able to do that. So it actually comes more genuine, I think, when you're not a salesperson. Cuz I wouldn't, I wasn't a salesperson really when I first started into sales. I didn't think I would like it. I didn't want to be a salesperson. Mm-hmm. , you know, for all the connotations that comes with that. But then all of a sudden like, wait a minute, I, I care about the customer more than I care about myself and I want them to be successful . And so when that comes across and when you're genuine, you know, you're gonna make more sales than everybody else. mm-hmm. . So that's, that's what I like, is hiring. I have hired teachers before. They're like the best salespeople you'll ever have and really good support people who care about the customer. I mean, those, those kind of people do extremely well. So that's kinda my, they're,

Speaker 0 (00:19:40) - They're kind of naturally geared towards educating, which is kind of the, that's the sale. It's, you know, an educational sale is gonna be probably more successful than a non-educational sale.

Speaker 1 (00:19:51) - Yep. A hundred, a hundred percent. So that's, I prefer some that doesn't have all the, the, the bad sales knowledge of the past 20 years , you know, and I have to fix it. I like starting from ground zero and building up from there. Not forget everything you've been doing for the past three years and right now I want you to do it this way. You know, so. Right, right. That's usually, that's the key, you

Speaker 0 (00:20:12) - Know, and some of the things that we talked about, um, earlier, we were talking about, um, a lot of ser especially service, well, small service companies, um, they, they're, they're hiring a lot of young people. Right. So, um, let's talk about that for a minute. Cuz I think that there are a lot of young people out in the market looking for jobs, um, either post high school, post post-college, um, you know, what's the benefit to hiring a, a younger person in a sales role specifically, um, for, for a service company? I mean, is it, is it should, should they be looking for, for young people specifically? Or should they be looking for a retired teacher? Right. Like you were just mentioning, uh, I know there's probably value on both sides, but let's talk to def

Speaker 1 (00:21:00) - Definitely value on both sides, but, uh, if you're not hiring young people now you're gonna be in trouble. You know, I don't care what home service business you're in mm-hmm. , if you look at your employees, if you don't have young people learning from the experienced people, your, your company's gonna be in trouble. Yeah. It's like a ticking time clock. So as long as you can get young people in the door and young people's funny cuz everyone always says, young people don't wanna work. You know, that's not the case. You don't know how to recruit them. is Yeah. Is the case. And so what's really cool is when you get, uh, young people, the one thing that's interesting is they have it in their mind. I don't have experience. Okay. So some people make the big mistake of lying to prove they have experience.

Speaker 1 (00:21:47) - I see. And when I find them lying, it's over. I don't care how amazing they are, I don't care anything if they're a liar, I don't want, I don't want them to be part of my company or any company I'm with. Um, so I think just being genuine, being honest, I don't have sales experience, but I want to, I want to learn. I'm eager to learn, you know, just be honest with people. And the good news is, in this market, people need salespeople. Mm-hmm. , uh, desperately. So they're still going to hire you. But if you, if you lie and you get caught in a lie and you will get caught either then or you know, into the job, even if they find out you lied, you're, it's over. It's the game is over. It's, and so, uh, my grandfather used to always say, you know, your word is all you have. So if it's true, if you lie, you're done. You know, you can never fix it. So it's the same thing in, in, in business. So I would highly recommend hiring young people if they are lying or, or stretching The truth is how, what they like to say, don't hire them cuz it's not gonna be a good, it's not gonna be good for you or your

Speaker 0 (00:22:53) - Business. So, so pressing into the, the what they've put on their resume and, you know, genuinely asking for, for answers that they would only know to give if they truly did it are probably a good, good piece of advice.

Speaker 1 (00:23:07) - Yeah. And also just looking at them because they started doing a lot of this. Yeah. A lot of that a lot of not looking at you anymore. Yeah. And you're like, well,

Speaker 0 (00:23:16) - So, so far you haven't laid out a great case for hiring young people. So they're liars. So we're hiring a bunch of liars. Why, why? What's the, what's the good size? So how are we, how are we, how are we out? What's the problem? I don't understand.

Speaker 1 (00:23:27) - Well, I think every age group has a group of really talented people. Yeah. And they have liars and they have people in the middle, you know? Yeah. I don't care who you are. So there's, there's young people who are lying. There's young people who just want a job and just check a box. But there's certain young people who want to excel and want to do better and be better. And that's the real key is finding that top talent. Cuz you can go to a teacher and find a terrible teacher, , you know, it doesn't matter how long you've been working, there's so understanding that there's top talented people out there mm-hmm. . And right now it's so competitive for young people. It's, it's, it's really hard for service industries and really in the industry because everyone is competing for that top talent, the people that aren't going to college anymore. Yeah. So they're looking for a different career. Like everyone is trying to get them and everyone's throwing a lot more money than probably they're worth . Mm-hmm. , you know. So, uh, the nice thing is for you is understanding that they're extremely valuable and yes, there's top talent out there. Mm-hmm. , you just gotta go find it. Yeah. So that's the, any, any,

Speaker 0 (00:24:36) - Any hints on where we should go to find this top talent that's hiding and out there in the wilderness somewhere? ,

Speaker 1 (00:24:43) - I, one of my customers, it, it was funny cuz I did this conference and I do a lot of conferences about how to, you know, hire young people. Yeah. And, uh, I, I got a call like a couple of months later and he goes, I did it. I hired a young person. I thought it was not possible , but what what ended up happening was they were servicing a home and a young person walked out and all they did was they said, is there anything I can do to help you? And they said in, in the past, I would've said, no, I've got it, thank you. But he goes, it triggered it. Wait a minute, this might be one of those top talented people. , you know, because they okay. They, they, they reached out to me. You know, that's kind of, kind of rare.

Speaker 1 (00:25:22) - So then all of a sudden I think, uh, you know, that's, that's the key is keeping an eye out, looking for people who are a little bit more outgoing mm-hmm. A little bit more open to talk to you. Mm-hmm. Hold the conversation is actually pretty hard. Um, it's hard for adults, , you know, I mean, uh, these days cuz of how social media is. Sure. But I think the biggest thing is if they can carry a good conversation, you'd be, this is person I need to start recruiting . Mm-hmm. , my, my boss makes fun of me because, uh, when, when we're in an Uber ride, I'm like recruiting the Uber driver

Speaker 0 (00:25:56) - . Yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:25:58) - I mean there's tons of great, great talent out there. Yeah. Uh, but the key is they're not always applying. Like if you put a, you know, job posting out there Yeah. That's not really how you're gonna find the talent anymore. I mean, it is, it does work. I'm not saying it doesn't, but you have to be looking and actively looking and being out in the community and doing community service and telling people about your industry. Yeah. Those kind of things go a long way.

Speaker 0 (00:26:26) - So let's

Speaker 1 (00:26:27) - Take this to find these young people. Let's

Speaker 0 (00:26:28) - Take this one step further. Right. Dig a little deeper. Are you, you've got, um, okay, let's say I'm out there, I'm observing, I am running across people in the service industry. Um, typically cuz that's what you're gonna run into and you find some people that you've identified that might be top talent. What, what do you do next? You know, like how can, uh, what's the next step for taking someone who just at face value you think might have the markers of a successful person in your company, you're, you know, sizing them up. What's the next step to you bringing them into, uh, you know, an interview or, and then proposal for like a short-term trial project or a program or, you know, what, where do they go from there?

Speaker 1 (00:27:12) - ? That's a great question. So it's funny because people always hired the way they wanted to be hired or they were hired. Yeah. And they gotta realize that is gone. Like if you're Yeah. If you're recruiting people the same way you did four years ago mm-hmm. , you're not gonna hire any young people. Like, you're, you're gonna be in trouble. So when you recruit them, in the past it was, why should I hire you? Mm-hmm. , now it's the other way around. Why should I work for you? And if you don't understand that mindset in the recruiting process, you're gonna be in trouble. So what ends up happening is when you, uh, young people want, uh, they don't care about money, which is kind of an odd, odd thing to believe most people say, I don't believe, I don't believe it, you know, but, uh, they care about their overall life, which is if I could go back to my career, I wish I would've done that.

Speaker 1 (00:28:06) - . Yeah. You know, I just worked from the moment I got up to the mo moment I went to bed, but Right. That they want, they saw their parents' work themselves to death and not really get anywhere mm-hmm. . And so they're thinking, why would I wanna do that? Like, that doesn't, doesn't make any sense to me. So they just have a different outlook. It's, you know, it's, it's different. They, they still wanna work, but the key is flexibility. So when you're recruiting them, you need to get, uh, help them understand why they should work for you mm-hmm. , and then you got to have, when they walk out of their car, the, the walk up to your building inside your building all has to be like a positive experience. Mm-hmm. and people always like roll their eyes and they say whatever, you know. But I, the, the customer that recruited that young person, they actually got a ping pong table in their office and they were, they did the interview playing a game of ping pong. Yeah. . And they said, this is the best person I've ever hired. They're fantastic. They, they wanna work at, so they're going on and on and on. But I think for you, understanding that they're looking for not just people think if you're playing and enjoying yourself, you're not working and that's not the case anymore. You need to, uh, bring the two together. So

Speaker 0 (00:29:23) - Does it just need to all be kind of more informal? Like is that kind of what you're saying? Or do we need to go buy all, everybody buy ping pong tables? You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (00:29:32) - I think it needs to be unique for you because if you do the exact same thing that everyone does, then I think o one of my, uh, customers said the best. He goes, I like to have fun. And so if it, if it, if it's kind of fun for you, if you enjoy doing it, then mm-hmm. , that's gonna be a little bit more. So not necessarily informal, but you need to think of people enjoying themselves. Like mm-hmm. one, one measure that I use when I, when I like manage people is I look at how many people are smiling . You know, so if no one's smiling in my team, then I'm in trouble, then, uh, I'm not doing a good job. Mm-hmm. . So that's kind of what I think. It's not just about being informal. It's about, uh, an experience having fun and are you coming in like when you see companies, service companies that hire a lot of really amazing salespeople mm-hmm. , there's bright colors on the wall, there's huge logos, there's, you know, dream it's an experience. There's, you know, yeah. You're like walking into Disneyland, almost . So Yeah. Right. Uh, I think when they walk into a space, they wanna see, can I have fun and work hard? Yeah. And that's what you, that's the image you want to convey. So, so this is, if you have young people in interview and they never call you back, you did something wrong in that process.

Speaker 0 (00:30:52) - Okay. That's interesting. Well, it's, it's interesting when we're talking about how there's a, there's a connection to what we were talking about, how you, you want to hire people that are not like you, you know, uh, because it's easy to hire people like you and it doesn't always work out. And so then as we talk about the experience and the environment that you're setting, culture, you're building, it really needs to be for first and foremost, for the benefit of the team, the employees, the culture that you're building and the, the company. And so maybe if you are, um, a little out of date or out of touch with what is in bringing those people around you, which could be uncomfortable and hard, uh, might be the answer, because you're gonna, the answers you're gonna get are what you wouldn't naturally, naturally think of. And it wouldn't necessarily be that you're against it, it's just that you wouldn't have had that idea. Yeah. So if you don't, you know, if you're not like a world class table tennis champion, then you know, you, you may not have fun playing ping pong, so you don't have a ping pong table, but maybe three of the people that work there, you know, would love to do that while they're waiting for you to put the schedule together. Right. Like, so, so when the new hire comes in and they see, oh, they're, they're, they're, they're having a good time, but they're also getting their work done, um, it's gonna be much more inviting

Speaker 1 (00:32:11) - Ex. Exactly. Exactly. So it's, there's a lot of little things to do, but that, that, that is some big ones. If you're not doing that, you're gonna be troubled. Now you don't have to like, go completely crazy and spend it, you know, change your office completely, but you need to think of the environment that you're bringing that employee into. Mm-hmm. , does it look fun? Does it look like people are smiling? Like if, if the, if your employees don't look happy mm-hmm. , that's gonna be a problem. That's, and, and a problem for your employees, you know, your current employees. It's not just That's right. Not just young people. Everyone likes to have a, a good time, enjoy their work. Yeah. So it's gonna help out everybody.

Speaker 0 (00:32:50) - I love this. This has been a great conversation. Um, uh, unfortunately we gotta we gotta bring it to an end. It just seems like we just got started. We covered a lot of ground here, who

Speaker 1 (00:32:58) - Really

Speaker 0 (00:32:59) - Did. Yeah. And, and we probably need to, you know, have a part too, but if anybody wants to talk more about this with Mark, definitely reach out to him on LinkedIn. We'll put that down below. Um, and, uh, and of course, field routes too. Um, I'm not really familiar with the app, but so couldn't necessarily, you know, speak to it. But if you wanna know more about what Mark does at field wraps, then field routes, then, you know, there's that. We'll put that link to that website there. Uh, but yeah, it's been a great conversation. I think this is a topic that a lot of businesses, especially small service based businesses who are looking to hire, not necessarily what I would call a professional, uh, salesperson, you know, that ha is degreed and certified in various tools and platforms. Someone who is more maybe entry level salesperson, um, that's trying to build up to that professional career. Um, I think, um, and, and sometimes turns into professional career, why they are, have built, you know, they could do it all inside the same company while the company's growing. Um, this is a lot of r great, great value, great advice for, for that person. So thank you.

Speaker 1 (00:34:02) - No, this was a lot of fun. So thank you so much.

Speaker 0 (00:34:06) - Yeah, no problem. All right, we'll, uh, we'll catch you at another time and, um, we'll leave it at that .

Speaker 1 (00:34:13) - Sounds good. Thank you again. And thank you everyone for listening.

Speaker 0 (00:34:17) - Hey, thanks again for tuning in. Um, I hope you're getting value out of this. Uh, if you didn't know, we have an email newsletter that follows this podcast, um, exploring growth newsletter. If you go to harvard murray.com and you click on podcast at the top, you'll see a little submission box there about quarter of the way down. You can sign up for the email. Um, every week I literally sit down and write my thoughts of what's going through my head at the, at the moment, you know, things that I'm dealing with, with clients, um, you know, concepts that I'm learning or deployed that have worked. Um, I, I talk about everything that, that marketing, sales, um, customer success, everything in between. So if that's something that you're interested in, uh, reading or, um, subscribing to definitely go there and check that out.