Identifying Your Buyer Pt. 2 with Dan Sanchez
In this episode, our host Lee Murray sits down with Dan Sanchez, the Inbound Marketing Director at Element451, to explore the critical topic of audience growth. Together, they delve into the importance of identifying stakeholders and understanding their motivations within the buyer's decision-making process.
Learn from Dan's personal experiences, including the negative consequences of misaligned stakeholders. This episode will also help you explore strategies for tailoring content, involving decision-makers, and leveraging referral partnerships.
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Dan - https://www.linkedin.com/in/digitalmarketingdan/
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Lee Murray (00:00:01) - All right. Welcome back to Exploring Growth. Excited to have the second episode in this series that I'm building inside a course called Building a Strategic Marketing Plan. So if you didn't hear on the previous emails or courses or sorry intros that I had on previous podcast, basically on building a course kind of in public and utilizing my podcast as a way to share that that process a little bit behind the scenes and bringing on experts in each domain that I'm going to cover to talk about things so people can kind of get some value along the way. And today I'm excited to have Dan Sanchez on which he's been on before. Um, who is working with Element for 51, I think as inbound director or is that your title? That's right. Inbound marketing director Yeah. And all things audience growth is actually listening to a LinkedIn live he was doing with someone else this morning on my way back from the airport and got a lot of value from it. I mean, talking about audience growth, this is just who you are.
Lee Murray (00:01:04) - This is what you do, right? It's it's it's cool to see you come into who you are as a marketer and listening to your story on LinkedIn live this morning. It it was cool to see you know you talking about being a generalist and then utilizing leveraging all the knowledge you've had as a generalist to sort of niche down and specialize in this sort of area of audience growth. And I couldn't think of a better person to have on and talk about identifying your buyer, you know, the world of your buyer more so than yourself. We had Tim Parkin as a global marketing consultant on for the first half of this module. When we talk specifically about the buyer and we talked about, you know, psychological type of things, emotional struggles, needs, pain points, the whole thing, you know, a lot of things that marketers know and have worked on before but just don't revisit as much as they probably should. And today I thought what would be great is we could spend the time talking about the influences that are to the buyer right there.
Lee Murray (00:02:07) - And there sometimes can be pivotal and very maybe more important than what's happening directly in the world. So. Thanks again, Dan, for coming on and talking about this. Absolutely. Thanks for having me on. All right. So let's jump into it. I'm going to start out by kind of defining for the audience, our audience stakeholder, and then we'll get to referral partner later. Those are the kind of two that I want to sit on today. Um, when we look at our target audience, we look at a buyer who's going to make a decision, you know, someone that we want to target with our marketing message and focus a lot of our energy on. But in their world, there are a lot of people around them, both internally in the company, externally outside of the company. And so starting internally, I'm using the word stakeholder as a sort of a general term. You know, they can be called influencers, allies. There's lots of other terms thrown around. But using the term stakeholder, it could be someone that is influential to our buyer and these are people that we want to identify and there are people that we want to learn about what makes them tick, what drives them and motivates them so that we know how they influence our buyer.
Lee Murray (00:03:23) - And, you know, if we look at just to kind of further build it out, we look at a role like, I don't know, like a facility services manager or director. That is our main buyer. Well, it could be, you know, an assistant to that director. It could be someone in a department that is maybe parallel to this buyer, but has lots of conversations with them every day because all their work overlaps. You know, it could be a CFO. There's lots of people that that speak into this, you know, service directors role and life and and cause stress and, you know, bring positivity. So those are the people we're talking about. It's trying to identify who are those people and what kind of what makes them tick as they influence our buyer. So we start with the stakeholder. Um, I think the first place I want to start this is how I did with the first part, is why does it make sense for us to spend time identifying stakeholders? Because, I mean, does it really matter? Right? That's the, that's the first question because, you know, marketers don't have a lot of time to to invest in pontificating and strategizing, which I think is why a lot of them don't do it, because it's hard for them to justify spending that time doing that work to their upline or to the CEO or whoever is judging their work.
Lee Murray (00:04:49) - Yep.
Dan Sanchez (00:04:50) - There's a few situations where it doesn't matter as much and then there's most situations where it matters a freaking ton because people don't make these big purchases provided it's a big purchase. Obviously there's smaller purchases, but the bigger the purchase is, the more this matters because we don't make these decisions in a vacuum. You know, if you're a B2B buyer and you're buying something that cost tens of thousands, hundreds, thousands, maybe even a million plus dollars, like you're not going to just make this buy yourself, you're going to have all kinds of influences on that decision, right? Yeah. You you label the one of them, which is like the internal influencers, of course. Like, like you got to think of like 360, like the people above them, their peers, the people below them, they all freaking care. They all have a stake in this game, usually on these big purchases, right? If you're buying a CRM or an HR system or even like a like a like something smaller, like something that you use, like a tool for your Gmail inbox or something for orders like you're going to you're generally going to have multiple stakeholders at the table that have a stake in the success of it and a stake if it goes wrong.
Dan Sanchez (00:05:53) - Right? Like you might be the main decision maker that's going to get hammered for this going wrong. Yes. But it affects other people, too, like their their agendas are could be messed up by it. So that's why that matters. And you have to navigate that. I've done it myself internally, making a big decision for an org before and I didn't do a good job of this and I ended up paying the price for it a full year later, going back and fighting fires because I didn't have full stakeholder alignment on making the decision. So the people that actually have experienced that, like me, know better now. That's right. You got to get your stakeholders aligned. So because of that, it's a massive influence. There's other ones though. That's not the only influence from internal.
Lee Murray (00:06:30) - Sure, sure. Yeah. It's the more you know about your buyer, the more you should then identify who influences your buyer. So then you can pick out who those are. And that's why it doesn't make sense for us to exhaustively go down the line of, you know, the list of who is like who, what roles are stakeholders, because it can literally be on.
Lee Murray (00:06:47) - I personally seen it many times where it's like the spouse of the person that you're buying and you would never meet that person, you know, where they're literally like basically roll over in bed and show them the screen and say, Hey, what do you think? I mean, you're a buyer, you know, but they're not really but they just want that warm and cozy feeling to know they're making a good decision, to your point, like they're making a decision on purchasing something from you. And it's going to have a ripple effect, whether it's greatly positive or, you know, even some semi negative. And it's going to affect other people. So who are those people and how can we think for our buyer? That's kind of my train of thought is I'm jumping to like if we can identify who these stakeholders are and how this purchase impact would affect them, then how can we do the work for the buyer to know to mitigate that disaster or positive? You know, hey, we did a great thing.
Dan Sanchez (00:07:43) - Yep. So oftentimes most of the work, especially for internal stakeholders, is at the bottom of the funnel, like you rarely making like top of the funnel stuff for this, you could maybe even mid funnel content, but this is usually bottom of the funnel stuff. It's it's explaining your product in a way that makes sense for your different stakeholders. Yes. For example, Element 451 we sell we're like the HubSpot of higher ed essentially, like we have a CRM, we have a marketing engagement platform, some tools and it, it's really cool. Um, but we even just even started doubling down on adding pages and even pirate a whole person that specializes in nothing but it because even though it's the director and VP of enrollment that are the decision makers for this kind of a platform, oftentimes it gets brought in as an asset to consult them internally. And guess what? If you don't show up on those calls, ready to speak it, ready to actually speak in a way that's going to make sense to those directors of it, you're going to lose credibility with them and then you're going to be fighting that on the inside.
Dan Sanchez (00:08:42) - You're a champion on the inside is going to be like, Oh, well, my director is not a big fan and now I have to defend it to them. So if you can show it prepared to those sales meetings with some expertise or at least some documentation that shows like, oh, this is that's the stuff that it usually asks and cares about, then you're going to get a lot farther because you're being proactive rather than reactive to those kinds of questions.
Lee Murray (00:09:04) - Yeah, you're you're kind of have a, you know, paintbrush. It's like a broader paintbrush would be like targeting a niche, right? And it's almost like in the enterprise level, this is ABM. I mean, you can do and. Market, too. But think a lot of people are watching this or walking through this course or small to midsize. And ABM is maybe on the higher end of something that they would be doing with their marketing team. But ABM is is a complex decision that's made by multiple parties. And you have to hyper target your content to one buyer.
Lee Murray (00:09:40) - And so if you kind of go a little bit broad, broader, that's kind of what you're talking about. There is maybe you have a solution for, you know, a business or a set of businesses, and it kind of fits in one vein. That's that's one sort of subset of that. It might make sense. Again, this is where you do the hard work of of experimenting and getting feedback, having feedback loops and surveying your, your buyers and the stakeholders around them and learning about what it is that matters to them. What doesn't matter? Because once you do, then you can utilize all of those conversations, utilize all those learnings to to specialize your content, make your content much, much more personalized. Yeah. And you could.
Dan Sanchez (00:10:26) - If you have a sales force, they're usually the best ones that'll tell you. So even if you have a few salespeople, I'd be like, Hey, who's the buyer? Usually bringing into the conversation? And they start naming off a few rules. Well, now you need to go sit down and figure out how to reverse engineer those roles.
Dan Sanchez (00:10:40) - Why? Why would they care about this product? And then you have to design content for them.
Lee Murray (00:10:44) - Yeah, that's a great point. And I was I was going to say that later on is that if you have a sales process that you're working your prospects through and you have a lead, that you're a deal that you're working through, one of the first things that you should be doing, either your first meeting or second meeting, depending on the nature or size of what you're selling is asking, Are there any other buyers involved? I mean, not buyers I'm sorry, decision makers involved. Is there anybody else that has to sign off on this? And if they do, then you want them to be a part of all those conversations if possible, ideally. But then that information, as you're saying, is going to be set back to marketing. Hopefully, if they're talking and marketing and say, Oh, well, okay, they want their CFO, they want VP of sales, they want these different roles to be way in for design or for whatever it may be.
Lee Murray (00:11:30) - Now we can create PDFs, you know, videos, whatever. We can create content and gear that to those stakeholders. And then that's where I think marketing really starts to get fun. I mean, for me at least, is that you are strategizing around the buyer. You're solving for the needs of the buyer when you're solving the needs of your stakeholders. So if you're creating a piece of content for a VP of sales that you learned about through your sales process because you know it serves your buyer, maybe that's the IT person that's fun, that's fun marketing work. It is fun marketing work because the.
Dan Sanchez (00:12:12) - More you can get it down, the easier it gets, right? Because these are usually usually you're designing some kind of assets, web pages, blog posts. The more resources you have those resources, unless you're making major changes to your product all the time, are usually set. And then it's about optimizing and building this library that can help you with all these different situations and roles and stakeholders that they have to deal with.
Dan Sanchez (00:12:34) - And it only gets better and smoother the more you put work into it.
Lee Murray (00:12:37) - Yeah, it reminds me of a tactic I've seen out there that works. I think it depends on how you deploy it, where you put a put an ad or a piece of content out for your buyer, but it brings value to the stakeholder. You put the ad in front of the stakeholder and you say, have you share, Share this with your and you insert the title of the buyer. So the idea is that you want them to consume it and love it because it meets their need or adds value and then they share it with the buyer, right? So then you have a trusted sort of referral into the buyer from the stakeholder. Now you've got a really good thing going. And I think by by getting in there and doing the hard work and learning. That's where you can then deploy those learnings in these type of backchannel strategic marketing tactics, which is really cool. So here's another question. Well, I had it written down here, and now I cannot read my handwriting.
Lee Murray (00:13:43) - Um, let's move on. Okay, so. So I wanted to give an example from Signal Media, my content agency, that what I'm trying to do with this two is show practicality. Like here's an application. One of the the campaigns we haven't launched yet, but we're about to hit Go On is basically a very personalized cold outreach to a top 100 list of our leads that we know we could sell them our product. Right. Um, and that's very hyper personalized, creating short videos that are very dialed in one one off and have we have a series of things to do as far as prospecting activities go, that's the buyer. And then for the stakeholder, we're going to do a similar thing, but something that's a little bit more scaled up based on what we learned from the target to all the stakeholders. Right. So then that would be instead of a one off cold email with a video, it would be a scaled cold email with maybe a non personalized video link or, you know, in the second email is a personal non personalized video.
Lee Murray (00:14:55) - You know, to give a practical example, I think once you once you learn about your buyer and then the influences that are the stakeholders have. You can then start to layer these these effects where the buyer is hearing a message and your stakeholders are hearing a very similar message, but it's dialed to their individual roles. Have you seen anything like that or or done anything like that?
Dan Sanchez (00:15:18) - I can't say I've done a lot of outreach to stakeholders of the buyer, especially like within the company now. Oftentimes I'm running LinkedIn ad campaigns, but even then it would probably be it could be beneficial to tailor ads just for maybe the people or the finance people in the org, but we haven't gotten to that stage of sophistication yet.
Lee Murray (00:15:39) - Yeah.
Dan Sanchez (00:15:40) - That's. It's not a bad idea though. Yeah.
Lee Murray (00:15:45) - You know, another another idea comes to mind. I never got to see it deployed, but I thought it would have a lot of legs on. It was client I was working with is in medical billing. And so they have a billing staff and then their client has a billing staff and the billers talk, you know, a lot.
Lee Murray (00:15:58) - They send a lot of data back and forth to each other and they talk to each other. So I had this concept of just sharing. Since they're always talking, why not share personal side of their work too? Because they're the same type of person that's sitting in those roles. They're just sitting on opposite sides and have like an email newsletter and maybe a Facebook group where you share a personal things that are happening. Like someone just had a baby or someone just adopted a rescue dog and they show the Pet of the month or whatever. And to me like this again is this is where marketing gets fun for me. I think you're you're you're doing good to sell something to someone that's great. And you know, it's the VP of whatever. But what about the rest of it, You know, what about the rest of the people that need to be addressed that are influential to your buyer? And how personalized can you make your message to them that then adds value across the organization? I feel like that's the beginning of retention because you're going, you know, on the front end and and saying, Hey, we just want to love on you and be friends with you and have you, have you trust us.
Lee Murray (00:17:08) - And you may not even even bought anything from us at this point. But, you know, if that's what their vibe they're getting in the messaging. And it's also valuable whenever they do sign on. Now, you know, retention and success is going to be so much higher.
Dan Sanchez (00:17:23) - Yeah, definitely. Think about it. If it's a big product again in the tens of thousands at least, then you have to think about it in the whole funnel. Okay? Like identify their three most influential stakeholders and just start with the three. You can build out website web pages personalized for them that address their concerns. There are things that they ask and showcase how the product best helps them write. So you could do that and then you think about like that's pretty bottom of the funnel, but they didn't even go farther down. You create sales enablement to arm the sales people who are getting on calls with these people so that they can effectively address those stakeholders. And then you got to think about customer service when you're first kicking off this relationship.
Dan Sanchez (00:18:01) - How do you how do you include those relationships and the onboarding for the product so that everybody's successful, not just the stakeholder that made the decision, that's the main person, but the state, but the other peripheral people that have to also see this implementation through, how do you onboard them correctly? So you can kind of see it all the way through there. Now, if it's a small product like you probably just need a like have some support docs that are addressed there for if they need help. But like a buffer, like a social media tool that just doesn't cost a lot of money a month. Like it's kind of overkill for them. It's it's not a big enough purchase to be of concern to those stakeholders usually. Right. Unless they're practically unless they're partly using it.
Lee Murray (00:18:47) - You know something I always pick up from your content and it's coming through right now. For some reason you're not saying it, but it's just kind of coming through is is taking this off of the professional to professional and making it personal so that I think people can understand the concept.
Lee Murray (00:19:01) - And a story comes to mind. My niece was dating a boy for a little while and he he was an Italian, had Italian family, and they were very much hands on, you know, in your face. And it was good. Like it was a lot of a lot of fun when he was around. But he would he would come over and, you know, our extended family, we'd get together and we would see him sort of working the crowd like he would work her mother and her father, you know, my brother and her sister. And it's like he was working all the stakeholders more, you know, to to have favor in the family as they were dating, more so than even the niece. Now, he would do things like get up and get her a drink or refill, you know, or something like that. But he was there for the family. Now that's sort of built in his DNA, which was kind of cool to see. But that's the way I think about it.
Lee Murray (00:19:56) - It's like if if you're want to get in, which we do, you know, you want to get in and sell through to the account, hopefully you would enjoy working with this this target. Then you got to understand who else is in there and what flavor you can bring on yourself.
Dan Sanchez (00:20:14) - Yep. I think for my role as a marketer, I'm usually not in that kind of relational role. I highly value relationships and as a marketer, I'm building a lot of personal relationships on an account level. This by the time they're at that point where they're doing essentially what you're your niece's boyfriend. That's yeah, that's definitely a sales lead initiative. Now marketing is usually the assist at that point, giving them what they need so that when they're they're armed, they're ready to serve and have some, have some assets that can. Be useful to those stakeholders. Maybe even some custom things if you're doing a highly involved account approach. It's not usually the marketer is building going person by person at that level though.
Lee Murray (00:20:55) - Yeah.
Lee Murray (00:20:56) - And this this goes to what you're saying before. That's why it's good for sales and marketing have such a good relationship, a good conversation, good communication because they all of these conversations can be enabled with good content. And vice versa. Absolutely. So, okay, we've I think we've covered stakeholders pretty good. I want to move on to Referral partners. What I think is interesting. It's just fascinating to me that we have all this tech these days. We have AI, we have, you know, Bitcoin, we have everything that's we could dream up and more. But still, somehow in the B2B world, most new accounts are sold based on a relationship and based on a referral. I mean, when I talk to people, of course marketing is there to drive leads and, you know, bringing new new awareness and all the things. But a lot of the times when, especially when you sell a good solid account, that's going to stick, it comes from a trusted source. So that's when I look at the ecosystem of all the people that are involved in having growing successfully, you got referral partners and you can call them what you want, but you know, these are people that are external from the company in some capacity that could refer you in.
Lee Murray (00:22:12) - So I wanted to kind of sit on that. Because I think it's interesting that everything really still exists by a relationship.
Dan Sanchez (00:22:22) - I mean, at the end of the day, the best referral partners, usually customers, and they're raving to their friends about it because it's helping them become so much more successful or helping them meet whatever pain point or whatever the need was for this product. So the better your product is fulfilling and fixing the pain point, the more referrals you're going to get right, and that becomes an amplifier of everything else. And I've certainly worked in some places, man, where we killed it in marketing, but because the product ended up not delivering as well as as marketed, yeah, I ended up creating a negative funnel, like a negative word of mouth and ended up working harder and harder. The more effort I put into it, the harder it got. And that sucked. Yeah, for sure. As a marketer, you're like, come on, product can't can't fix this. But understandably is complex.
Dan Sanchez (00:23:07) - And yeah, sure. But on the flip side, the more you can have success, the more they're going to talk to themselves. And sure, you can try to incentivize it with like affiliate codes and all that kind of stuff, But at the end of the day, the better you can make your product and the more successful you can make your customers, the more they're going to talk. And then they in a situation like people change jobs at Sweet Fish, it happen all the time. Would they be super happy with sweet fish as podcasting services change job and bring sweet fish with them and then change jobs again and bring sweet fish with them again? It happened over and over again. They tell their friends, their friends call and that's that's all because of a good product. And usually, you know, oftentimes you can smooth over a lot of even wrongs with the product If there's strong relationship and good good account management happening if there's an account. But ultimately it comes down to how good your product is.
Dan Sanchez (00:23:52) - Now, there's a few other referral partners to I'd like to think about vendors that are serving the same target audience but aren't competitive with you influencers and associations and their peers, which kind of comes down to the product again. But those three vendors, influencers and associations or organizations, they're a part of all three of those are potential referral partners for you. Yeah, I remember even now with Element, I'm looking into like who's of all the sub markets in higher ed who's who's who's got the relationships, who's got the favor with all these institutions like who's who's who's an agency that's like highly valued and favored in community colleges. Somebody specializes in community college and understands their language better than we do, even though we spend all our time thinking about colleges. Yeah. Who is that for private Christian colleges? I actually have a friend that does that a lot, and I'm having them in conversations. I'm like, Hey, how can we partner together and make how can I make this way valuable for you? And because if we can build something good here, and he's referring to all his service service agreements, like, Hey, you should check out Element.
Dan Sanchez (00:24:58) - Hey, you should check out element. Yeah. And that's that's those those deals are going to go through the pipeline super fast because it's already got trust. Yeah you know and that's what you want to try to do with their vendors, the influencers who are in their ear and the associations that they're a part of.
Lee Murray (00:25:14) - Yeah, I mean referrals have quicker sales, higher margins, better retention across the board. It's just that's what you want, right? So why not spend some time thinking about how do we get build these partnerships, build these relationships, build these inroads And you know, as you're talking, what comes to mind is just this like big idea of. Being the. Business or the the role in the relationships that you're building that's on mission for something that everybody can get on board with, Right? So if you guys are about something that benefits everyone, then you're going to have a much easier time getting and keeping the attention of referral partners, getting them involved and engage in the things you're doing, they're going to be more easily refer you to to people.
Lee Murray (00:26:06) - So I think it would it would behoove people to look at what is the mission that we're on, almost like from a value set, you know, what are we doing as a company that is attractive to everyone, not only our buyers and stakeholders, but those referral partners? That's what's coming through. So thanks for that. No, I think that's it, though. I think that's the that's the key is if you can be on beyond mission in your industry. Then you sort of become because really what's happening here is everybody's trying to do the same thing. They're all trying to get to buyers, they're all trying to get sales, they're all trying to market themselves. They're all trying to start small little engines by themselves. Whereas if you could be the catalyst for one big engine, in theory, you know that everyone jumps on. It's, you know, it's sort of like when we look at marketing tactics or maybe, you know, some campaigns, it's it's like having being the host. It's like being the host of the party.
Lee Murray (00:27:15) - You know, everybody's good that glad that they didn't have to throw it at their house. They didn't have to pay for the food. They didn't have to do all the stuff and call all the people. But you're glad to do it because you know that it's going to fulfill your mission. It's also going to bring people together, right? So this idea of of being a host is another thing I talk about. And I think, practically speaking, podcasts are the best way to do it right now or one of the best ways because you can literally get sales involved and marketing involved. Reach out to all your prospects, reach out to everybody, interview them, you know, talk informally about things, learn. It's such a great feedback loop. Um, I don't know. Thoughts on that.
Dan Sanchez (00:27:53) - Absolutely, man. That was what we were big on at Sweet Fish, right? Was interviewing your ideal buyer building relationships with them and even asking them questions like What influencer has been the most impactful to your work over the last six months? Where do you follow them? You know, I'm like making notes of like, who to interview next.
Lee Murray (00:28:09) - Yeah, yeah.
Dan Sanchez (00:28:10) - Yeah, yeah. Again, start to build relationships with the people that are also influencing them. Yeah. And then actually. Adding as much value to the buyer as possible. Even if I even if they weren't in market for what we did, we knew it would still add up to something because again, they might, for whatever reason, it might not work out in their current job. But the next job, you know, they're certainly going to figure out what we do because we're adding so much value. They're going to be like, Well, who is this all about? You know? Yeah. So that's one of the key things that Sweet Fish did to grow to the size that it is.
Lee Murray (00:28:42) - Yeah. I mean, I think podcast and you know, being the host is a is a great mode. Um, you know, and we look at I want to try to bring it full circle to why should they spend time, how do they validate spending time on this and, and doing this work to their higher up? I think as we saw in the first part two about the buyer, the more learnings that you have, the more of those learnings you can deploy back into your marketing and sales efforts and that.
Lee Murray (00:29:13) - Is a direct result that that brings growth in lots of different ways. You lower the cost of your or increase the margin, decrease sales time. You know, all of these business metrics that CEOs care about, you can impact by staying close to your buyer, staying close to your partners and constantly, you know, building those relationships. It's really kind of what it comes down to. And then I think, practically speaking, there's a ton of ways to do it. You know, LinkedIn's a great way. It's a white collar profession. Instagram, DMS, you know, tick tock. There's wherever there's a community, wherever there's a place to dial in and be close to people learn about what they're interested in. That's where it happens. You can do it offline events, conferences, you know, all of them, they all play. It's all about just being close to people.
Dan Sanchez (00:30:08) - Absolutely. In a remote environment podcast makes it the easiest because people rarely say no to being on a podcast. Yes.
Dan Sanchez (00:30:15) - If anything, they might not just say anything, but generally they never say no. So if you ever want to get an audience with someone and build a relationship podcast, the best way to do it by.
Lee Murray (00:30:23) - Far, yes. All right. That's it. I mean, I think we covered a lot of ground. A lot of good nuggets in there. Thanks again for being on. I think this is going to be super valuable.
Dan Sanchez (00:30:37) - Fantastic. Thanks for having me.