How to Find, Vet & Hire a Fractional CMO with Behdad Jamshidi, Founder at CJAM Marketing Matchmakers
In this episode of Exploring Growth, host Lee Murray talks with Behdad Jamshidi, Founder at CJAM Marketing Matchmakers. They discuss the role and benefits of a Fractional CMO for growing businesses, including when to hire one, how to go about it, and the process for success. The episode highlights the strategic value fractional CMOs bring to scaling companies.
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Behdad - https://www.linkedin.com/in/behdadjamshidi/
Behdad Jamshidi
00:00:00
I would never recommend for someone that's doing about a million a year to just hire a fractional CM out of the gate, because you have to have a certain amount of money to hire the fractional CMO, and then a certain amount of money to actually implement whatever that fractional CMO needs you to implement. And usually when you're around that $1 million range, it's very, very tight. And so you need to be thinking about like when to hire. And usually what I recommend is after 3 million like that's kind of seems like the the floor. It's like after that floor you found product market fit. You likely have one, maybe two marketing channels that are working pretty effectively. And now you need to bring someone in to understand, okay, how do we build out a proper marketing strategy so that we can scale to that next point? Right.
Lee Murray
00:00:42
So second stage companies, they're scaling up operations, investing in marketing, building teams, all the things. And I think for a lot of the people listening, there's a point where you need support for marketing and your team, but you don't really need a full time head of marketing or CMO.
Lee Murray
00:00:58
And I think this is a really good place for a great fit for a fractional CMO to fill that gap. and so today we're actually going to talk with Bedard, Jim Sheedy, founder of CGM marketing Matchmaker, who helps companies find vetted fractional CMOs and agencies. And we're going to talk about what to look for in a fractional CMO, where to find them, and which one is the best stage for or best fit for your stage of growth. So welcome to the show, Bedard.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:01:25
Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.
Lee Murray
00:01:27
yeah. So, I think this is interesting because before meeting you, I didn't know that there was actually someone out there that, did this, you know? So. So tell us about you and what you do.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:01:37
Yeah. Thanks. I mean, the one minute back story is I actually used to be an engineer. So super random that I got into marketing. but on the engineering front, I used to do a lot of business consulting for midsize businesses. Anywhere from about 50 to 1000 type employee range understanding, kind of like what's going on from a C level perspective and then building out roadmaps of like, how do you get from A to B to C, within the company around technology.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:01:59
And so that's where a lot of like my business consulting, sales, leadership and technology experience came from. But on the marketing side, I started building out websites, Google Ads, SEO. about six years ago and very quickly didn't like doing 80 hour websites on the weekend. Oh my gosh. So I thought, all right, how about I stop doing that? and find some different marketing partners to work with, whether they were agencies initially, and match them with businesses and realize very quickly there's always a gap between, you know, marketing agencies understanding business and businesses understanding marketing. And at the time, I didn't understand a fractional CMO or CMO existed, six years ago. And so I set out to become this matchmaking service where I understand what businesses need and then match them with the right marketing partners. And I've talked to 943 over the last six years, and I bring that all down to a vetted list of about 10% of that audience.
Lee Murray
00:02:49
Yeah, that's that's amazing. It's cool to see your path in your career.
Lee Murray
00:02:52
I know a lot of people in marketing have had various paths, you know, to get to their discipline. you know, a lot of people are working on creative things and they realize they want to be on more of the data side or vice versa, or, you know, there's lots of places to to sort of find your way. And, if you are the type that really enjoys connecting and relationships and, you know, seeing the value on both sides and you have the marketing background that makes that makes perfect sense, that's really cool.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:03:21
Yeah. No, I've really enjoyed it. And just I find connecting it just gives me so much energy. So I love doing it.
Lee Murray
00:03:26
So okay. let's let's jump into this conversation about fractional CMOs. I think you have a lot of value to bring here. And, we've we've got some notes to walk through here on. you know who is a fractional fractional CMO? Where do they exist? Like where do they plug into companies and where where do they find like work in companies, find the most value from them? so let's start with what is a fractional CMO?
Behdad Jamshidi
00:03:50
Yeah.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:03:50
So a fractional CMO is basically a CMO that used to be working full time, but now you get them for a fraction of the time, right? A lot of businesses can't afford a full time CMO, and a lot of them don't have enough work for a full time CMO. And so you can actually get a fractional CMO for a day of their time out of the week. And therefore, you get that strategic oversight in your business that you wouldn't get from, like a marketing director or a junior level marketing person to kind of help a business move forward. and so that's typically what a fractional CMO is used for.
Lee Murray
00:04:18
Okay. Now I would assume that there's lots of applications, for different types of, fractional CMOs with different types of businesses. Let's flush that out.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:04:28
Yeah. So when it comes to fractional CMOs, they have different skill sets. And there's different industries that they know how to do. there's different marketing strategies and tactics that they know how to do. So when you're coming in to hire a fractional CMO, you want to get someone that understands your industry first off, right, like if you're in B2B or if you're in B2C, like all these things make a difference in terms of who you're going to be, end up end up hiring.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:04:51
and then the skill sets also differ, as we talked about this a little while ago, is like, if you're hiring for a fractional skill that understands how to do brand messaging brand strategy, Helping them build out the website like the go to market strategy is different than hiring someone that actually knows how to run the execution aspect of marketing. So, you know, taking everything that you did from that first phase and then actually implementing in the second phase. And so there's different fractional symbols, as I mentioned, through industries, through what stages there are, what kind of projects you're doing. And a lot of businesses don't think about that when they're about to hire that executive.
Lee Murray
00:05:25
Yeah, that's that's a huge point. That's a great starting point because you have to understand where you need help first because there there are a lot of businesses, you know, B2B, I'd say, primarily that aren't really looking for brand building right out of the gate. They're, they're looking for more support for sales, you know, and looking at data, feedback from the customers, that kind of thing.
Lee Murray
00:05:50
Whereas on the B2C side and I'm just sort of, you know, painting broad brushes here, you're going to want to look at more awareness type of, marketing, which is going to be branding and, you know, more nurture. So, so yeah, I think that's a huge place to start, because if you get talking to somebody who's talking about data, a lot of, you know, leaders that may be hiring, these folks may not know the lingo. They may not know how to guide that person. So, you know, honestly, a lot of what we're going to be talking about here is it's a great roadmap for leaders if they're actively looking for hiring a fraction of CMO. So that's like checkbox one. That's that's great. Yeah.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:06:31
Yeah. Yeah 100%. And I think another thing that's important to understand, like as a business is when to hire one. a lot of businesses try to do it too early. I was just literally talking with a customer, 2 or 3 days ago, and they were like, well, someone recommended me to hire a fractional CMO, but they were just, like, doing about a million a year.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:06:49
And I was like, I would never recommend for someone that's doing about a million a year to just hire a fractional CM out of the gate, because you have to have a certain amount of money to hire the fractional CMO, and then a certain amount of money to actually Implement whatever that fractional CMO needs you to implement. And usually when you're around that $1 million range, it's very, very tight. And so you need to be thinking about like when to hire. And usually what I recommend is after 3 million like that's kind of seems like the the floor. It's like after that floor you found product market fit. You likely have one, maybe two marketing channels that are working pretty effectively. And now you need to bring someone in to understand, okay, how do we build out a proper marketing strategy so that we can scale to that next point? Right. Getting from 3 million to 10 million is another big jump. And then there's another big jump after ten. and so it's really important to understand like when the time to, to bring in a fractional CMO is within that range.
Lee Murray
00:07:41
I like that. So leading up to that, you know, 0 to 1 million is a lot is very largely on the founders and the the core team. And then you know, 1 to 3 million, you're you're getting traction in the market. And I think you're probably telling me, you know, maybe hiring some freelancers, you're hiring, maybe a full time marketing manager or someone who can just kind of keep the plates spinning to support sales or to put out ads, you know, those kind of things. But it's very kind of a discipline based, you know, it's it's Facebook ads or it's, you know, the things that you are going to market with and then post the 3 million mark. And this is these are round numbers. But post that mark you're going to be looking at, okay. Now we really need to build a bigger team that's going to be led by someone. And really pass. The 3 million mark is where you get to fully building a team. And and having some, you know, it's like, I don't know, from 3 million to 5 million maybe is that place where a fractional CMO can really fill that gap?
Behdad Jamshidi
00:08:45
Yeah.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:08:45
Like, I mean, 3 million to 10. I actually like I've placed fractional CMOs in a $60 million company. Right.
Lee Murray
00:08:51
Okay.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:08:51
Yeah. Sometimes matters on the maturity of the business as well. Right. Like if you're like.
Lee Murray
00:08:56
Yeah, true.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:08:57
Custom home builder, you're building $1 million homes. You can make a $60 million company pretty well, but your marketing might not be at the level that it needs to be at to scale. So it really just comes down to sometimes even the maturity of the marketing of the business that the fractional CMO is working with. Yeah. but it becomes fun, right? Like once you pass that like 3 to 5 million, you actually have some money to dedicate to marketing and actually like start building that brand, start building those different flywheels that help you scale. Right. And you're like seen everywhere. And people go like, wow, this companies everywhere like this, why are they there? And then all of a sudden they're thinking the next time they're about to make a purchase or need a certain service, that's who they go to because they've built that trust.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:09:33
And that through that marketing strategy with the fractional CMO and your other internal resources.
Lee Murray
00:09:38
That that's all very helpful. I'm sure that if you're a certain, if you're a certain type of company, you would probably want to hire again, back to size. You probably want to hire a fractional CMO that's used to working at that size, right?
Behdad Jamshidi
00:09:55
Yeah. So the way that I think about that is that you kind of have like vertical, CMOs. Right. And so if you're a company that's trying to grow, like let's say you're still sub $10 million and you're trying to grow, you're not going to go higher. A fractional CMO that worked at like fortune 500 companies or fortune 100 companies, that type of fractional CMO is very, very different. when you're working at those big companies, you're basically waiting for things to come to you. So you're very reactive. so, you know, you're sitting there, emails come in, you need to manage and make sure that you're filtering the right things through that company.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:10:27
Then you have CMOs that actually know how to build from the ground up. I know CMOs that work with startups. Right. Going from 0 to 1. I know CMOs that are really good in that like 3 to $10 million range. And like they have specialties because they actually are proactive at that point. They actually have to make things move and go. And so they might have some chops of like, you know, maybe they have like a bit of copywriting experience or whatever it is, but they also know how to build that team around them to help them grow. And typically it's like a team of contractors, freelancers and agency resources with potentially like a marketing director on the inside of the company. Yeah. And so you need to be thinking about this, that when you're hiring a fractional CMOs. The biggest mistake I see businesses make. They get really excited about the logos, and they miss the fact that that's just not the right CMO for you at that time.
Lee Murray
00:11:10
Yeah, that's makes perfect sense.
Lee Murray
00:11:12
What about personality? I would think that would have the big piece. How do you flesh out that on the front end?
Behdad Jamshidi
00:11:19
Yeah. So personalities is just I kind of have a personally I have like an intuition at this point, given how many people I've spoken to on the business side and how many people I've spoken to on the agency and fractional CMO side. So you get a bit of a sense of like, oh, this personality would work well with this personality just through having those conversations. And that's honestly one of the reasons why my business is so hard to scale, because I'm the middle of it all. I have to, like, connect it. All right. You're the broker. The personality matters. Exactly. The broker. so when it comes to personalities, you have to kind of understand where you come from. And on that front is like, if you're a business owner that's really detail oriented, and you need someone that can think more higher picture and marketing stuff than you do that.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:11:59
But if you have someone that is, for example, as a business owner, you're not as detail oriented and you want someone to basically push or push against the way that you think. you would hire a personality for that. so you need to kind of understand, like who you are as a leader and then find out a partner that isn't the same is different enough that they will push back on you and find those gaps that you might miss yourself.
Lee Murray
00:12:22
Okay. So what about checking their work, right? Looking at their resume. what what are the things that a leader should be looking for when they're hiring a functional CMO that are markers for, hey, they they know what they're doing. You know, assume they're data people were data people, right? Brand people were brand people. But how do they look into the background, you know, and apart from what they see on LinkedIn and, and see, hey, this person can actually help us.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:12:50
Yeah. So one of the biggest things right now, there's so many fractional CMOs in the market, and there's a lot of people that aren't truly fractional CMOs.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:12:57
And so one of the things that I kind of would do when you're betting fractional CMOs is asking for. Hey, if you've worked with any other customers and typically they should have a list of at least 5 to 10 customers that they've worked with. Okay. A lot will just say like, oh yeah, one, maybe one's about to sign. That's a sign that it's a very new fractional CMO to you want to look to see if they have documents like different templates that they use when they're working with different customers. Obviously those templates can be shifted, but you want to see that they've actually have those types of things set up because it tells you they've done this before, and they've done it enough times that it warrants for them to have different templates and different KPI sheets and different like systems to basically run their customers through. those are some of like two of the biggest things that I would look at. And then at the end make sure you reference check like just always reference check. Talk to at least 2 or 3 different people that have worked with the fractional CMO.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:13:44
Ask questions around their behavior, how they communicate, what kind of results they were able to drive, why they let them go, like why are they not working with them potentially.
Lee Murray
00:13:51
That's a good one.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:13:52
You know, like find out these things. and it'll give you more insights so that you go in with the right expectations when you're hiring this fractional CMO because, yes, they'll know marketing. Yes, they'll be able to drive stuff forward. But ultimately, like not every fractional CMO is going to be able to drive results in the first 2 or 3 months, right? It takes time. Marketing takes time. And so you need to be mentally ready for that because you're going to be likely working with this partner more long term. The more and more stuff you actually delegate to them.
Lee Murray
00:14:17
Yeah. So how how do you ask, you know, if you're interviewing someone, how do you ask them for? I mean, obviously it's like who who have you work for? And tell us some examples, the case studies, those kind of things.
Lee Murray
00:14:31
But looking looking deeper at the actual KPI sheets or, you know, reporting that they look back to the systematic part of it. I mean, how do you get to that naturally.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:14:43
Like in an interview process, right?
Lee Murray
00:14:44
Yeah.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:14:45
Yeah. So I mean, when you're going through an interview process, I think at the beginning is just trying to get the personality fit. If you feel like, oh, we align, we dive or having good communication, good talking. Cool. Right. the second step that I kind of take, I have like, each individual marketing channel listed out in my interview guide and I go, hey, like what would you rank yourself from 1 to 5 out of this and out of this and out of this, like a website branding, that kind of stuff? Yeah. As the ranking themselves, I'm kind of getting a sense of like, okay, where do they think they're strong and where they don't think they're strong at? and then I'll and then if someone says they're like a five or something, I'll just be like, I'll just throw something in around like websites.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:15:17
It's like, well, which platforms have you worked with? Have you done like WordPress, Shopify? Have you done BigCommerce? Have you done this type of stuff and see if they'll be more honest around that kind of stuff? I'm like, oh, I'm actually only a five in like these types of areas. Yeah, right. so getting some of those more insights as you go through it and seeing where they find the most strength. If I see a fractional CMO say they're good at absolutely everything, that's like, that's a problem. right. There's no way someone's.
Lee Murray
00:15:40
I was just about to say that. Yeah, someone's going to say, oh, we're good at everything.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:15:44
Yeah. And that's just like a big, big red flag for me. and then the other aspect of it becomes like, once you have the personality fit, once you look at those, different areas that they think they're strong in now, you look at their work and so you ask for those KPI sheets you ask for.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:15:57
Hey, like when you're doing like a brand strategy, which you told me to do, what do you take your customers through? What does that process look like? And show me how you run through that and what's the end result like? They should be able to share all of these different types of things, obviously, sometimes under NDA, because they've worked with different customers and there might be some confidentiality things there. But yeah, it's you have to look at those things before you hire.
Lee Murray
00:16:18
Yeah. Okay. So, you know, I've, I've just kind of barely peeked into this world. I mean, I've seen people on LinkedIn. I talked to have some conversations with them and companies that have hired them or thought about it. So I have a little bit of, knowledge. But, what I've seen that I thought was interesting is companies that are trying to get as much bang for their buck as possible. The best way for me to probably say it, but they're looking to hire someone who really, they really should hire a full time CMO.
Lee Murray
00:16:49
But that's the way I think about it. But they're trying to get someone who is not only strategic, but is also, has their hands in the execution day to day. now, if that's one day a week or five days a week. Obviously, the more days a week you might as well have a full time person. what's your kind of take on that? Or should companies be looking for this to fill a certain gap in their strategy or, you know, their go to market type of plan? Or should this person be kind of wearing multiple hats under that role?
Behdad Jamshidi
00:17:26
Yeah. So I would never hire a fractional CMO to do multiple hats like execution aspect. Like that's not the way to use it.
Lee Murray
00:17:33
Okay. That's helpful. Yeah.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:17:34
Right. Because yeah, you're spending hundreds and hundreds of dollars an hour on this resource. Yeah, right. Fractional CMOs are not cheap. It can be anywhere from, you know, the lower, lower end. If someone's new, they'll probably charge like 175 to 100 an hour.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:17:48
Right. And then I go up to like $500 an hour. so if you're having them do copywriting work for you, that's a very expensive copywriter. Yeah. what you want to be using fractional CMOs for is basically come up with a strategy, manage the team, find you the resources. Make sure people that are make sure people are doing the right things. And usually within like 6 to 9 months, you want to hire a marketing director underneath the fractional same out to do a lot of that management stuff too, right. Like you'll pull them more and more into strategy and you might even need less of their time. So that's typically how I think about it, is let them hire the people, the resources that are frankly cheaper to run the different aspects. So if you're going to be doing Google ads or Facebook ads or SEO, get them to hire the agencies to do that. because now you have the knowledge on the inside to be able to vet those guys better to make sure you have solid partners.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:18:36
That's the other thing people don't think about is like fractional CMOs will typically come with their own networks, right? People they've used before. So if you have someone seasoned like, yeah, I've used this guy for Google ads for like for other companies, I know they're good. That's why my service works is because I have people that I've used with these different providers, and I can be like, I know this guy is good in this space because I've used them before. Yeah, right. So that's another value. Fractional CMO spring.
Lee Murray
00:18:57
That's great. That's what I that's what I anticipated hearing, and I'm glad I heard that, because what I've seen is companies really trying to do both things, and it's almost like you got to pick one and they need to. They need to be fulfilling kind of one specific thing. when it gets to cost, you know, how how much to spend on a fractional CMO do they is is there one way that they should look at the this this person coming into their team and it being part of the overhead? Or should they be looking at this as a, a value, ROI type of purchase, you know, or relationship? Is it an hourly rate that they're looking for proposal or are there other ways to charge? How do you frame out cost?
Behdad Jamshidi
00:19:43
there's so many different ways, and it really depends on the business.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:19:45
But if you're bringing a fractional CMO in, typically on average, it's going to cost you 8 to 10 grand a month. Right. But fractional CMO services can range anywhere from 5 to 15 grand. And there's some that are even higher. There's some businesses that have multiple fractional CMOs underneath, one organization. And so therefore there's more margin, more overhead. And so those retainers can go into the $20,000 range. so that's just like some of the concepts of thinking in terms of the money aspect. I think initially when you're bringing a fractional CMO and you have to think of it like you're bringing in an employee, not in terms of ROI. the ROI comes down the road as you get more marketing initiative running. You're getting the machine working like ultimate. You're looking like, is this marketing operation running better now that they're here? And are we doing more things that are actually potentially going to produce great results? Right. Like SEO will take time. You can run Google and Facebook ads and hopefully get a, you know, a return or some sort of insights in the first three, 4 or 5 months.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:20:40
But are they doing the right things right? You'll get a good sense of that. So you're bringing them so that as a founder or as a CEO, you can offload all that marketing mindset onto someone and making it their problem. So you can focus on the other aspects of your business and ultimately for you to scale as a business. If you want to start getting past the $10 million mark and growing, you have to outsource HR, operations, marketing, all that stuff so that you can focus on strategy in the business. And that's what a fractional CMO does.
Lee Murray
00:21:08
Yeah. Yeah, 100% okay. Where do. Where would they go to look for one? I mean, it's kind of a new concept for a lot of people. So is this an indeed kind of thing or a LinkedIn thing?
Behdad Jamshidi
00:21:19
Oh, man. I mean.
Lee Murray
00:21:20
You. I mean, I know you, obviously, you're a great resource, right? Yeah.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:21:24
Of course. you know, like LinkedIn and indeed in those areas you can try looking for those fractional CMOs, but you're going to go through a lot of fluff and not great time.
Lee Murray
00:21:32
A lot of riffraff.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:21:33
Yeah. there are different like fractional CMO like agencies and groups that you can you probably won't be able to get into as a business, but other people might have hooks into them, like myself, for example, or other fractional CMOs. If you can find one. those are kind of like the, the only ways. There's no real great way to find them unless you know someone who knows someone. Yeah. and the more well-connected someone is, the better it is to find them. Yeah. And you can also do, like, LinkedIn searches and things like that and just start like, outreaching and reaching to someone and have someone on your HR team do that, right?
Lee Murray
00:22:02
Yeah. How often do you see companies stealing away CMOs to become fractional CMOs? I know that kind of sounds odd because they're going from a full time, but I think that people's work and, you know, roles in life are shifting so much today that people are looking to pull back from a full time position.
Lee Murray
00:22:20
They might go into a part time. is that where, you know, a company is putting out almost like a job position and saying, we're looking for a fractional CMO, and then people who are full time might find it. Or have you ever seen that?
Behdad Jamshidi
00:22:33
so I haven't seen a ton of that. But what I do see is like there are full time CMOs that will also do some fractional work. Okay. and then over a course of time, they go like, I actually like the fractional work more. And so they just kind of go that way, right. there's a lot of, there's a lot of like stuff happening during I mean, we had like a micro recession, right? Like in the last two years, like everyone felt it. They say there wasn't happening, but it was happening.
Lee Murray
00:22:55
It was there.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:22:55
Yeah. A lot of businesses let go of their their CMO resources. Right. So this whole market got influx with the bunch of people who were like, you know what? Like now that I have some friends, maybe in the next 8 to 12 months I can start a fractional CMO business.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:23:09
And yeah, so you've got a lot of that as well. and so that's kind of how I think that the fractional HTML world worked. But the coolest part is when you find those fractional CMOs that have been doing it for five, six, seven plus years before it became a thing, those are the people that, you know, like are legitimately into it and they've done it. And they built systems and they work with different customers. Those are the types of fractional CMOs you want to find and work with versus the ones that are just getting into it. Because when you just get into it, there's so much to learn from the ground up. right. Like when you're building a marketing thing from the ground up, most people get into a role as a CMO when the marketing is already running. And even if they were doing it initially, if they're CMO for two or 3 or 4 years, they're not executing at the bottom level anymore. So they don't know how the algorithms have changed, how the marketing channels have changed, how people are shifting constantly.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:23:54
So, that's just some of my kind of like thinking around that.
Lee Murray
00:23:57
Yeah. No, I love that. And I think that, there's a lot of merit in, fractional CMO. The way I see it is their their feet are still on the ground, because they, they have to be more entrepreneurial. They have to be more nimble. Just the nature of how they're keeping work. so they have to be more scrappy in their work. And, you know, they might have, you know, three different. They have three to, let's say three or 4 or 5 clients. They might have three different types of clients. So honestly, I think that brings a world of value to each one because they can bounce from one to another and adopt, you know, or share kind of concepts and strategies that benefit one another.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:24:42
Yeah. You said that. So well, I mean, this being able to learn from different businesses and what worked and what didn't work and that learning is so valuable, especially these things shifts so fast right now.
Lee Murray
00:24:52
It is. Yeah, 100%. Well, this has been a great conversation. thanks for coming on and chatting about this. if people want to find you, where can they find you?
Behdad Jamshidi
00:25:01
Yeah. I mean, the best place to find me is jam marketing. Com, and you can reach out to me from there. Or just finding me on my LinkedIn. bit of jam. and that's the best way to connect with me.
Lee Murray
00:25:13
Love it. This is awesome. Thanks so much for coming on. And we definitely push people your way. I think the service you're offering is super valuable. I see that all of these, sort of executive level roles are fracturing, and it's becoming more of a normal thing. So to have someone like you that is a, you know, a true resource, having all these relationships with both sides. And then we didn't even get to the agency side. I mean, that side, almost maybe we should have back on for another episode, but agency side, you know, people have already they already know that there's a value to have a trusted partner there.
Lee Murray
00:25:47
So, so, yeah, I mean, I think, I think people are listening are going to it's going to be very obvious. They need to reach out.
Behdad Jamshidi
00:25:53
Oh, I appreciate that. And I hope it was valuable. And I hope it helps people find the right resources for themselves.
Lee Murray
00:25:58
Yeah for sure. Thanks again. Thank you.