Designing GTM Success with Roee Hartuv, Revenue Architect at WinningByDesign.com
In this episode of Exploring Growth, host Lee Murray sits down with Roee Hartuv, a revenue architect at Winning by Design. They discuss go-to-market strategies for early-stage and second-stage B2B recurring revenue companies. Roee defines early-stage companies as those refining their sales processes after achieving product-market fit. This episode highlights the necessity of a customer-centric approach and the evolving nature of sales strategies.
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Roee Hartuv
00:00:00
When we're talking about efficiency, we need to break down those silos, and we need to have everybody walk and talk the same thing. And what we promote is having a common language around impact. Okay. Impact is what the customers are getting from using your product. That's the common thread. And so marketing needs to market based on the potential impact and create awareness and educate the customers as the actors need to qualify. On impact. Sellers need to sell on impact.
Lee Murray
00:00:41
Welcome back to Exploring Growth. You know, a lot of people following this show are founders, CEOs, entrepreneurs looking for scale after finding product market fit. And today I'm talking with Rohit, Revenue Architect at Winning by Design. And we're going to talk through go to market mindset and strategy. And if you're working on scale, I think you'll find some great nuggets to apply to your company from this conversation. So it's going to be a fun conversation. Welcome, Rosie.
Roee Hartuv
00:01:12
Thank you for having me. Great to be here.
Lee Murray
00:01:15
Yeah. So like I do with most of my guests before we jump into our conversation on Go to Market.
Lee Murray
00:01:21
give us some of your background. Tell us who you are and what you're doing.
Roee Hartuv
00:01:25
Yeah. so my name is, like probably many of our listeners, I started my career in sales. actually, I studied computer science, but I never coded for money in my life. found myself or the first role that I took on was, sales engineer, helping the sales team sell. I really liked the customer facing, roles. And quickly I found myself actually going into a sales role. I I slowly made my way up. director and VP level. And then I would say four years ago, I moved to the dark side and became a consultant. So right now, working, for Winning by Design and we I have the privilege of working with B2B recurring revenue companies at that scale up mode, helping them improve their go to market strategy and build processes to support that strategy. yeah. And that's, that's that's what I do.
Lee Murray
00:02:32
I love it. and now you're based in Germany, right?
Roee Hartuv
00:02:35
Yes, I'm based in Germany.
Roee Hartuv
00:02:36
Yeah.
Lee Murray
00:02:37
How long have you been over there?
Roee Hartuv
00:02:38
Eight years. I'm originally from Israel. Moved here. open a European office for an Israeli, SaaS company. Yeah. And, you know, find. Yeah. Eight years later.
Lee Murray
00:02:50
One thing leads to another, and you're still there, right? You must like it.
Roee Hartuv
00:02:54
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we love it, you guys. Yeah.
Lee Murray
00:02:56
Okay, cool. Let's jump into this so early stage. What what how I wanted to kind of frame this conversation is we'll talk about early stage companies and we'll we'll talk through that. And then we'll jump to second stage and talk about that a little bit separately. so early stage companies, what is it that they're trying to. What do you see them. I know you work with hundreds of these companies in the past. What do you see them doing. And and what's working and what's not working.
Roee Hartuv
00:03:21
Yeah. So let's define an early stage because because a lot of people, use it different ways.
Roee Hartuv
00:03:30
We at Weaning by Design, we define early stage company as a startup company. a company that has found their product market fit. And now they're on the way to find their go to market fit.
Lee Murray
00:03:44
Gotcha.
Roee Hartuv
00:03:45
Now product market fit without going exactly what numbers we're looking for. But product market fit means that there are customers out there that are willing to pay to use your product?
Lee Murray
00:03:59
Yes.
Roee Hartuv
00:04:00
And go to market fit is once you find how to sell and our and you're able to sell that in a repeatable process. And again here without going into exactly the numbers, does it take place at 5 million, 10,000,020 million. What we like to search for is where you start to see common things that happen throughout. Let's say it's usually the customer's, journey. But let's focus on the sales process right now. Yeah. You start to attract and close the same type of customers. The ACV start to be in the same ranges, sales duration, almost the sales. Right? almost the same. It's not as when you are a startup.
Roee Hartuv
00:04:50
There's early stages that you sell to different customers. Yeah. Everybody that comes in. You sell to them one client, you close after two weeks, the other clients you close after six months, and it's all over the place, right? Finding that repeatable process is what custom companies at this early stage need to focus on.
Lee Murray
00:05:09
Gotcha. Yeah. So they're refining who their ICP is and what value that customer is getting from them. And the value then they're getting from that customer more and more, the more customers they bring on, the more they work with, the more they talk with prospects. okay. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Yeah.
Roee Hartuv
00:05:28
Yeah. And the common step, as you said. Right. First of all, we need to define you said the value that we're getting from them. Value is money. Right. So the first thing you probably need to do is define a pricing strategy. How are you going to monetize that? Are you doing that on consumption based or on a monthly subscription based.
Roee Hartuv
00:05:46
So you need to focus that in the beginning You need to have the founder or the founders focus on that growth. And I use the term growth and not sales like founders let's sales because we know that there are other types of acquiring customers, such as Plg. Right. And sure, POG motion is the founder that actually sits over the weekend and responds to, to feedback on the product and fix and add new features. Right? Only then you start hiring experienced salespeople to actually join you. So our advice is, as founders, before you start hiring the very expensive resources of sellers, make sure that you who probably know the the problem intimately because you're building a company and a product are or is able to sell that. Yeah, once you do that, define a data model. What is the customer journey? How does that look like? What do you measure when and how? Define the go to market model, right. At some point. Okay, I'm selling to enterprise. I'm selling to mid-market.
Roee Hartuv
00:06:58
I'm using direct I'm selling outbound. Define what is your go to market model. And then find that repeatability.
Lee Murray
00:07:07
Yeah. And that's you're going to find that as you are you saying that you you're you're saying point to the buyer's journey to find, where that sort of entry point is. So you can so you can narrow that down and create a system around it.
Roee Hartuv
00:07:22
yes. So you need to define the customer journey and the customer journey. And I'm not talking the classical, marketing kind of customer journey, like, okay, they get to a website, etc.. Yeah. it's more than that. Like, how do we who sells what activities, key actions that we need to take throughout the sales process. How do we onboard them, what does this customer success do with them, etc.. So looking had that customer journey. Yeah. This is where we start creating those processes. Processes create that repeatability for sure. And there thereby creates that go to market fit.
Lee Murray
00:08:00
Yeah it makes perfect sense. And I think your focus on what I would call bottom of the funnel conversion and sales process onboarding and obviously, you know, first impression customer success being high.
Lee Murray
00:08:15
to to to bode well for retention. this is where you spend a lot of your time. I mean, some of it has to be dedicated at some point to finding new customers that you can bring into that process. But yes, you've got to really refine this, a lot, because when you want to try to scale up now and try to find hundreds or, I don't know, tens or hundreds or thousands of new people to come into that, it's got to be really well defined.
Roee Hartuv
00:08:42
That's right. Yeah. And and that refinement, those testing that you do allows you to really narrow down what you're selling to, who you're selling, how you're selling. All this takes place in that early stages.
Lee Murray
00:08:56
So would you say that at this stage there, they need to spend most of their time on the sales process itself?
Roee Hartuv
00:09:04
Yes. Because you don't have customers. You don't have a lot of customers to retain and expand.
Lee Murray
00:09:11
Yeah, right. That's true. Yeah. So not a lot of effort spent there.
Lee Murray
00:09:14
So it's really more about.
Roee Hartuv
00:09:15
You focus a lot on acquiring new logos.
Lee Murray
00:09:18
Yeah okay. So it's developing new business obviously. But but but what you're going to do with that, the conversion rate is the way I would put it in through the sales process, because those touches, they could be, you know, as little as two meetings, probably not as much as 12 to 20 meetings, depending on how long the sales cycle is. That's right. but there's also.
Roee Hartuv
00:09:42
Like a wider, thing that we need as a company. The sales process comes after, or the sales focus comes after the product focus. In those early stages, you're very focused on the product. Sure. And that's where most of the resources, when you think of it, go to right. You need to get the product right. Right.
Lee Murray
00:10:08
Yeah it's it's MVP iterating quickly. You know, is this a bug or a feature kind of thing. and then, you know, when you really start to get some traction for, for sure, is dialing in your pricing and knowing, okay, do we have a margin here? is this scalable? What does this look like for building a team around it? and if all the all the lights are green, then you're you're starting to work, you're starting to really refine that sales process and start moving up, up the funnel or up the journey.
Roee Hartuv
00:10:41
That's right.
Lee Murray
00:10:43
Love that. Okay. Yeah. So for for Signal Media, my content agency, we have a framework for buyer's journey. But it's really heavy on the marketing side. It's it's anchor. It's awareness nurture conversion referrals retention. Right. So the referral retention part is, is is going to bloom out of what you're talking about. You're talking more structural journey. at this point, yes. do you so I know you've worked a lot of companies helping them do this. And you know, anybody that while they're listening to this, once I go to the website, Winning by Design. Com yeah. Got a lot of really good resources on there, some courses, all kinds of stuff. So check that out while you're listening. what can you give us an example of, you know, a company maybe that you've worked with and help them do this so we can kind of put get our hands around what we're talking about.
Roee Hartuv
00:11:41
Yeah. know, our classical use case, and I can't use specific names, but the classical use case are companies, let's say, that have a great product but are lacking those processes.
Roee Hartuv
00:11:54
Right. Okay. They they have traction. The product is good. Customers are coming in there are they are able to retain and improve the product. And then they need to standardize the sales process. Yeah. This is like our bread and butter. Yeah. Right. So come in. This is these are best practices. We when we come in we usually do some sort of a diagnostic and analysis. Right. What's, what's the current state of the business. But then we start creating we call them playbooks. Right. Listening to sales playbook our customer success playbook. So a lot of these type of work to standardize the process based on our best practices or what we believe are industry best practices, together with what the company is currently doing. Well.
Lee Murray
00:12:42
Yeah. Gotcha. okay. So where where does this, how does it translate now or transform into second stage? We look to move to a company that is beyond, I don't know, 10 to 20 million. and they've got all their sales stuff in place, you know, and they've got a really good solid.
Lee Murray
00:13:01
They've really started working on marketing now, and maybe even brand. what does that look like? to, to move to a second stage company.
Roee Hartuv
00:13:11
Yeah. Let's talk in order to answer that, I just want to differentiate between what happened until the market crashed or the the recession, as it's called. Right, 2021. So before 2021 and after 2021, before after 2021, we didn't really see a difference. Everybody was were buying from everybody. money was cheap. SAS company was selling to to other SAS companies. Yeah. Yeah. Happy days right. Yeah. Companies continue to focus. And this is the term that that is being used a lot. Grow at all costs kind of mentality and that grow at all cost mentality. You just pull more resources on headcount, mostly on sales focusing on that new business. And yeah, let's bring in more customers without let's bring more customers hoping that they would not churn. And when money was abundant yeah. It wasn't a problem. Sure. and that came at a cost.
Roee Hartuv
00:14:23
And after the market crashed, people were starting to be laid off. companies, churned or stopped using a lot of their SaaS solutions. This is where, you know, Warren Buffett says that when the tide is low, you see who is swimming naked or swimming without a bathing suit. That's the.
Lee Murray
00:14:43
Yeah, that was good. Well, basically, who has value? Well. True value. Yeah, yeah.
Roee Hartuv
00:14:49
And what happened was. Is that all right? We it was a balloon. Like a lot of companies, public companies you saw like Dropbox and companies like that like their cost structure could not their growth dropped or stalled or dropped and got a lot of example. Dropbox is just one of them. Yeah. The cost structure remain really high. They were paying high salaries for ease that were not bringing in what is an appropriate RR in a year. And those companies and alike still had that good ol cost mentality. Let's. Yeah.
Lee Murray
00:15:36
For more of their culture sources.
Roee Hartuv
00:15:38
And yeah, it worked 20 2021.
Roee Hartuv
00:15:42
But now it doesn't work anymore.
Lee Murray
00:15:44
Okay. So there's got to be a shift then. You can't just throw salespeople at it. how did it shift?
Roee Hartuv
00:15:51
All right. And that's where the shift. Right. So the more mature company is, the less focus is on. I wouldn't say less focus on product, but the importance of focusing on executing go to market strategies and processes more efficiently becomes much more important. And that's the shift. So and when we're talking about operating more efficiently we're talking basically around cost or productivity per ramp. Right. Using smaller or limited resources in order to create or to generate more revenue. That's that's why we're here and that's what happened after 2021.
Lee Murray
00:16:36
Okay, so trying to be more efficient so they can grow sustainably.
Roee Hartuv
00:16:40
That's right. And that's what the focus should be in that scale up mode okay. So in that scale up mode we need to continue to grow. But we need to now start looking at cost.
Lee Murray
00:16:59
Gotcha. So then what's the natural shift then away from sales people to content marketing.
Roee Hartuv
00:17:07
That's one thing. Marketing has a pivotal role. And what we see here is that in a lot of companies, I see marketing thinking only on top of the funnel.
Lee Murray
00:17:18
Yeah, I see that a lot too. Yeah.
Roee Hartuv
00:17:19
And not thinking about I'm not even talking about middle of the funnel and bottom of the funnel, even talking about supporting. You said that in in the way you guys, help companies focusing on retention, supporting customer success. And a lot of places when we go in and say, hey, marketing, how are you supporting your existing customers? Oh yeah, we send them a newsletter every month. Yeah, like who reads that? What value do you actually provide to your existing customers? Right. We have a customer advisory board. You have more things that could actually help them. Are you generating a community of your existing customers around the product? Yeah, they can share experiences. And I'm not even talking about having marketing support, the expansion opportunities, which of course is the next level.
Roee Hartuv
00:18:12
Sure. So that's that's one thing. but you see, from what I'm talking about is like shifting the focus. And again, it's not completely shifting, like we're always going to continue to focus on new business and acquisition, new logos. But let's make sure that we focus on where recurring recurring revenue takes place, which it takes place in the CSS, like the post-sale part of the customer journey.
Lee Murray
00:18:40
Yes it does. And of course your model has to to be set up to have recurring revenue. It has to be set up for, taking advantage of, you know, places to add more value. Once the client, you know, the prospect becomes a client over time so that LTV can grow. and, yeah. No, I mean, what you're saying is ringing true for me because I see it a lot. We have some some clients that we only help them with retention because, you know, the way they get business is through, channel partners. And there's not a ton of marketing that needs to happen for them to get new business.
Lee Murray
00:19:17
A beautiful thing, right? But they've got to keep the business. so they're in the business of relationships and making sure those relationships are solid. You know, that there's clear communication, Transparency. they're bringing them all the newest stuff so that, the client doesn't have to think about it. You know, that that we, you know, we use email newsletters, but it's not just sending them an email newsletter saying it's it's sending it's it's communicating and building a relationship that can last as long as it possibly can last. and our clients terms, it lasts for decades. at some times, you know, not we're not talking, you know, 2 or 3 months, churn or even 18 month churn. We're talking about years and years. So you're right. Yeah. It's it's fortifying. So, you know, taking from the first part early stage build your sales process and your structure of bringing them in, and then you fortify it with marketing in your second stage as you. And what's so great about that is you can you have all the insights and feedback that you're getting during that time to turn into new marketing, to reach new people with the same problems and same desires?
Roee Hartuv
00:20:24
Yeah, and that's why it's crucial to have marketing also involved with the CSS team.
Roee Hartuv
00:20:29
That account management team. yeah. That in a lot of cases it's overlooked unfortunately.
Lee Murray
00:20:35
Yeah it is. we're involved with the process with a client right now that's going through an upgrade of their system. And so it affects their customers. And so communication is a lot of what content marketing is. It's messaging. You know when you get down to it. That's why it works is because the messaging is right. And so we've been pulled in to help with communication. And you know, it's funny how you really need someone who thinks about communicating all day to come and sit with people who are making, you know, digital changes with technology to, to, you know, look at the customer and say, okay, well, what's going to happen when the customer tries to do this thing they always do on reflex? Well, they're not this is going to happen. It's going to be bad and they're not going to like it. Okay. Well let's start there and let's let's put some messaging in place there and then work backwards to how we can proactively tell them that that's going to happen.
Lee Murray
00:21:26
You know. So but not having not having us at the table. means a lot more headache for the customer. a lot, you know, poorer experience and potentially drop off.
Roee Hartuv
00:21:39
Yeah. And let's talk about the root cause of that. Not having marketing at the table on the other side is the classical. And again, this is, thrown around a lot. But it is true that siloed approach, each team doing their own thing. And coming back to we're searching for efficiency in how we manage and how we operate our go to market team. We need to make sure that everybody is aligned across that customer journey. That silo talks about marketing doing their own thing, creating ncl's and a lot of cases marketing and sales or says they don't agree what. mql actually means marketing defines it one way, sales defines it a different way. And then we see, hey, you're the leads that you're generating is garbage. low quality and marketing is like, you're not following up, fast enough. So yeah, that's the the constant beef.
Roee Hartuv
00:22:39
Right. And then you have sales and customer success. Yeah. Sales. We're just here to close, sending the opportunity or the customer across the fence, see us make sure you give them a fantastic onboarding experience. I sold them something that, you know, to you to deliver. Right.
Lee Murray
00:22:56
It's up to you to figure out what I sold them.
Roee Hartuv
00:22:58
Exactly that. And customer success and account management. So when we're talking about efficiency, we need to break down those silos. Yeah. And we need to have everybody walk and talk the same thing. And what we promote is having a common language around impact okay. Impact is what the customers are getting from using your product. That's the common thread. And so marketing needs to market based on the potential impact and create awareness and educate the customers as the actors need to qualify. On impact sellers need to sell on impact, not on features. Yeah, we need to onboard based on impact. Customer success need to make sure that the customers are getting impact and when they're getting, they need to show them the impact may prove to them the impact that they're getting.
Roee Hartuv
00:23:54
And we need to upsell and cross-sell based on additional impact that we can do. That's a common thread that we need all the different teams. Yes. And yeah, by doing that we become customer centric.
Lee Murray
00:24:08
Yes. Yeah. It's it's the best way to go, to manage those teams as well, to keep everybody in lockstep of what we're all rowing in the same direction. when you say impact I, I use the word value. But sometimes I'll use the word outcomes. because, you know, why is someone going to go through all of this and spend money they want to achieve some kind of expected outcome. And I think if so we call it impact. If we are looking at impact that happens after the sale. So they spend the money and then the next day this happens and they they're starting to achieve impact, or a series of things happen over time and then they achieve that impact over time. However, maybe that happens after the sale. how much needs to be focused prior to the sale on impact?
Roee Hartuv
00:25:01
100% right when you think about that.
Roee Hartuv
00:25:06
In the good old days, before we, SAS existed or recurring revenue existed, let's say before 2010, like, Salesforce is known to be they're not the first one, but they are the ones that are considered to to sure introduce that before they came along with that recurring revenue model. Take for example, me. When I when I started my sales career, I sold, perpetual software. I didn't care. Didn't care. Right. Yeah. What happened to the customer after they signed the contract? And, the first payment because not the first. Did the payment because it pay upfront.
Lee Murray
00:25:53
Yeah.
Roee Hartuv
00:25:54
If they, you know, reached impact. What sort of impact. I don't care I got yeah it wasn't really. Yeah. Yeah. The all the risk was on the buyer. Right. Because if they did the wrong the wrong buy they can get their money back. There is some brand risk for me, but it's. Yeah it's basically the share in a recurring revenue business, right? They can churn after the first period.
Roee Hartuv
00:26:25
Yeah. And we know that we're not making money on the first period. Right. We need to have our customers stick with us two, three, five periods until we're actually profitable on that specific account. Right. And when you think of it, the risk is on me now.
Lee Murray
00:26:45
Yeah.
Roee Hartuv
00:26:46
If I don't care if I, as a seller, don't care about the impact that the customer is going to get, I'm not doing my job correctly because all of a sudden the risk is on me. Because if they churn, if they don't get to impact, they will churn. They won't churn. I lost money on that account.
Lee Murray
00:27:06
Yeah that's right. And sometimes they have you have to produce new and different impact as they count grows.
Roee Hartuv
00:27:13
That's right. You're Cassidy, but that's the customer success and account management team that are responsible. But coming back to your question, as sellers, I need to make sure that I sell on impact, that I sell on the right impact, because if I selling on the right impact, meaning I'm selling the right solution to the right customer.
Roee Hartuv
00:27:35
If I'm selling outside of my ICP, they will churn. If I'm over selling, over promising within our ICP, whatever it is, they're going to churn. So I need to focus my sales process on impact. That's the difference in recurring revenue.
Lee Murray
00:27:50
Yeah, it makes the whole model a little bit more honest, I think, and it has to be transparent. from a marketing standpoint, where we're taking it to the next level because we, we want to, warm them up for the impact that they're going to be discussing getting during the sales process. And so we we almost have to add our own unique value. Before that, we even get to impact before. Before we even get into discussing what impact they could have. we almost have to have our own separate impact that gets them to a conversation about the ultimate impact.
Roee Hartuv
00:28:31
Yeah. And here's something that I would like to add that you're probably as marketing, you know, that but not all sellers understand that. There are two kinds of impact.
Roee Hartuv
00:28:43
When we again you call it value we call it impact. There are two types of impact. There's the rational impact. That's the classical make more money or lower cost. Some even say that's the risk. But everything underneath that like you can break it down making more money or reducing costs let's say savings. Saving time. Saving time. Yeah. That variations of that. Yeah. But there's an emotional impact as well. Yeah. And we all know that And sometimes we can sell on that emotional impact. And when we sell to multiple stakeholders, multiple people have different emotions that can get different emotional impact for sure. If I'm if I have a champion, the best emotional, the best impact that I could, emotional impact I can create for him or her is by making them look good in their organization. For sure. If that's their motivation, I need to sell on that. Hey, if you use my product and we'll be successfully rolling this out, I will save the company money. But also I will have a personal emotional impact on you because I will make you look good in front of everybody and you'll get promoted six months after.
Lee Murray
00:30:01
Yeah. So they actually get a double impact in their world.
Roee Hartuv
00:30:05
Yeah, yeah.
Roee Hartuv
00:30:07
And now you need to understand who you're talking to to understand. sure what type of impact. And here's another tip the higher up you go, the less emotional, the more rational that it is, right? So you're selling to a VP level. Director level. They care about how you're going to save them time, make more money, etc. but when you're starting off with actual users, we know it's not part of the sales process. Sometimes you have champions, you have users, you have initiators. Whatever their role is, users might like the user interface. That's an emotional impact, right? Yeah. Same type of emotional impact I get from using my iPhone, right?
Roee Hartuv
00:30:50
Yeah, right.
Roee Hartuv
00:30:50
Feel happy. So yeah, impact varies, or at least emotional impact varies from person to person, from stakeholder to stakeholder. Yeah. And there's the rational impact that usually make more money. Lower cost. That's usually for the company It says relatively the same for the different stakeholders.
Lee Murray
00:31:13
Yeah. you can't really orchestrate it, but, you know, you, you kind of sell to the person that you're, you're, you're selling to. But the best that I've seen is whenever you sell something based on something that's rational or logical, and then, you know, a few months later or however much longer later when that impact actually happens in the way that you described it, they, they experience that emotional impact and then tell you about it, and you didn't even talk about the emotional side of it. So they got this double impact. You know, that's the best. If you can get the emotional on the back end. and sometimes you have to sell to it on the front end. But if you can get it on the back end, then I've found that those customers, is as far as it's in their, their purview to, to to control the account and stick with you. they'll stick with you.
Roee Hartuv
00:32:02
Yeah. Yeah.
Lee Murray
00:32:04
This is great. I mean, I love talking through this.
Lee Murray
00:32:07
I of course, because it's partially what we do in helping, marketing sales teams, go to market and, and refine their message, and create content behind it. so, you know, thanks for walking us through this, this, this this is a great conversation.
Roee Hartuv
00:32:22
Thank you. You enjoyed it?
Lee Murray
00:32:24
Yeah. Now, so if I want to send people your way, where do we send them? I know we said winning by design. Com but where else?
Roee Hartuv
00:32:30
Yeah. So winning by design.com. If you want to learn, we've got a ton of, open source IP that you can use. If you want to learn more, start there. yeah. And LinkedIn, either me or Winning by Design. The company. Yeah. we share a lot of great content there. We do some, open, webinars, of course, and there's a book called The Revenue Architecture that talks about everything that, we talked about today and much more than that.
Lee Murray
00:33:00
Revenue architecture. Okay. Yeah, we'll have to put a link to that.
Lee Murray
00:33:04
Hey, thanks again for this. It's been great.
Roee Hartuv
00:33:06
Thank you. I really enjoyed it.